by "Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
Published 10/16/2017 at 08:24
by "Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
Published 10/16/2017 at 08:24
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STARS: 0
My wife was rear-ended in her Nissan Rogue last week by a young girl (supposedly not texting) in a Camry. The Camry definitely looked like toast and had to be pushed from the scene, but the Rogue was damaged, but driveable. My wife took it to a bodyshop that day who went ahead and provided a quote for repairs of $5500, including a bit of frame damage.
Visibly (I’ve only seen pictures), it doesn’t look like terrible damage. The bumper cover is ruined and needs replaced, the rear hatch has a little bit of damage, the force put on the bumper did damage the quarter panels, so those will need straightened out too, and the exhaust will need repaired.
Her Rogue has now been thrice crashed: first time was her fault rear-ending somebody, second time she was rear-ended and now the third time she was rear-ended again. It is (was) in relatively good condition, but did have a few scratches here and there. The only thing it has ever needed was routine maintenance, so while it wasn’t a fun car to drive, it has been reliable and useful. It has about 125k miles on it and is a 2012 model.
Given its higher mileage and history, part of me wonders if the insurance company is going to total it. Is there a rule? Google-fu shows me that if the damage exceeds 75% of value, they generally total it out. If they total it, how do they arrive at a value? Would the value of the payout for her Rogue be diminished because it had been damaged previously?
Assuming insurance uses replacement value, most comps for her Rogue (age + trim + mileage) seem to be in the asking price range of $9000-11000. Is that a range of what the insurance company would be likely to offer?
I asked her to file the claim through our insurance company, who would then subrogate it through the other driver’s insurance, figuring this would be easier on our end. In subrogation, how would that work if the car is totaled? Would the other driver’s insurance company arrive at a value and then it’d be up to us to accept or try and hold out for more?
Potentially totaling a car is completely new to me, so any advice you guys/gals have is appreciated.
"Chuckles" (chucklesw37)
10/16/2017 at 08:39, STARS: 0
Good luck. My only experience with totalling a car was for flood damage, so it might not apply to you. I called my insurance after my car was flooded, and they had to send a field agent to determine the exact value of the car. Like he was out there measuring the tread on all of my tires because that influences the payout. So he finishes and leaves, and his report goes to a different department who then calculates value. A few days go by, and I get the call. They total the car, and offer me $3,800. This was for a 12 year old Civic with no working AC and 175k miles. But they tell me that at auction, they’d only expect to get $383 for it, so if I want to keep it they’ll just subtract that from the total and send me a check for the rest. The car still drove fine, it just had a mildew problem. So I kept the car, got a nice check, fixed the mildew problem, and it’s still running a year later.
"Matt Nichelson" (whoismatt)
10/16/2017 at 08:41, STARS: 2
I used to work as a claims adjuster at Progressive so I can give a little info.
We used JD Power to determine car value. Other places may use NADA or something similar to those two. I would expect value would be based off of a certain percentage of clean trade value, but don’t quote me on that as some insurance carriers may do something different.
As far a subro goes, what will happen is, if you go through your insurance, they will subro for the amount of the claim including the deductible. That means you would only pay the deductible and the other insurance company would owe that back to you.
Strictly my opinion, but if there is frame damage, I would let it go. Just because the outside looks a certain way doesn’t mean what’s behind it isn’t worse off, so it wouldn’t be worth trying to buy it back because you have to think about problems that may occur later down the road. Again, just my opinion on that.
"PartyPooper2012" (PartyPooper2012)
10/16/2017 at 08:45, STARS: 2
In previous accidents, were repairs done with help of insurance? i.e. were repairs deemed suitable and car was returned to it’s pre accident state?
Let’s say car had no prior accidents. Go to nada.com punch in your car with all the gizmos in it. Get the value. This in theory should be near where similar cars are selling in your area - craigslist and other sales do count.
You take 75% of around that value and insurance company will decide if the car is totaled or not. It also matters what condition the car was in prior to accident. Were other damages repaired properly? Or was it - take the check from insurance company and leave that bumper hanging with duct tape? Say you had the latter. Well, that brings the nada and comparable sales down so 75% of lower value means your car is more likely to be totaled.
Your body shop estimate isn’t necessarily what insurance will use to determine this. They will use their own assessor and/or body shop.
Your car is fairly newish and somewhat low mileage. it’s sorta toss up at this point if they will total it or not.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
10/16/2017 at 08:52, STARS: 2
Total loss just means that they will pay you what *that* car was worth prior to the accident that caused the total loss.
In your case, because the car has been crashed before, you will have a lower value than totalling a car that had never been crashed before. If you try to show a comparable that doesn’t have a comparable crash history, you aren’t going to get very far with them.
You will likely get an offer for less than the comps that you’ve found, based on crash history. I had that happen when I totalled out my W210 Mercedes. Be prepared for that, but remember to be reasonable with them. I thought I’d have to fight my insurance company for the Merc payout, and then they valued it at $8900 (A comparable was about $9500, and I had been rear ended once before in it). I took that offer and paid my deductible, and went on my merry way.
As far as subrogation goes, I’d try to get the payout directly from the other party’s insurance company first , rather than dealing with my company. At least that way it doesn’t show up as a collision claim on my account, since it should be covered by property damage liability on the responsible party. In your case, your insurance will likely low-ball you on the value (drastically, because you are in essence asking them to foot the bill until they collect), then negotiate with the other driver’s company. If the other company feels the value is less than your original payout from your company, you end up with a collision claim on your policy for the difference.
Even though it’s more work, deal with the other insurance company directly.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 09:06, STARS: 1
Thanks for the feedback - that’s a bummer they use trade-in value! That’s not replacement value at all. I’m certainly going to have to temper my expectations, I think.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 09:06, STARS: 0
Certainly true - I just can’t search for comps that have accidents in their history.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 09:08, STARS: 0
Yes - her insurance fixed hers the first time, the other driver’s insurance fixed it the second time and we’re subrogating the claim through our insurance this time. The repairs from the first weren’t perfect (that was before I was in the picture), but the second time was perfect - I couldn’t be happier. We actually took it back to that shop for this repair as well.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 09:10, STARS: 0
If that was an option, I might try and do that, if the frame damage is minimal/repairable.
"ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com" (ita97)
10/16/2017 at 09:11, STARS: 2
Unfortunately, I’ve done this before. I don’t know the exact magic they use to decide totaled vs. repair, but I know that any getting past 50% starts to looked at for a total loss. Filling through your company and going through subrogation is probably the way to go. They’ll be much easier to deal with, and they’ll be likely to give you more for it (especially if they know there is a strong chance of recovering against the other parties insurance policy. If you go through the girls company, they are going to lowball you and fight you over every dollar.
If they decide to total it, your adjuster will appraise the car and come up with a value. This is actually a negotiation. They can make condition adjustments and things like that in ether direction. While they may factor in the previous accidents (as they are obligated to restore you to the condition you were in prior to the crash), if it is in otherwise really good condition, or if you’ve done a whole bunch of maintenance that would make it better than average for year and mileage, share those records with the adjuster. I’ve had the condition adjustment increase thier valuation of a car significantly after I’ve proven meticulous maintenance and recent repairs on older vehicles.
Once you agree on a value, the next part of the conversation is the buy back on the vehicle. If you don’t want the vehicle, they’ll cut you a check for value minus your deductible and you’re done. They’ll also pay you for the unused portion of your state registration for the year. If you want to keep the car, they’ll then offer you a buy back value. This is also a negotiation, but expect it to be something like 10-20% of the value of the car. If you go that route, they’ll cut you a check for the appraised value of the car, minus your deductible and the buy back price. You can then do whatever you want with the car, but I recall the deal requiring that I proved that I took the paperwork to the state and obtained a salvage title on the vehicle.
In terms of subrogation, your insurance company will withhold your deductible. Once your claim is settled, they’ll negotiate with the other parties company and reach a settlement with them.v You’re usually entitled to the first money they recover up to the amount of your deductible and they get to keep the rest. Im my experience this takes 3-6 months, after which you’ll get a letter and a check for the amount of your deductible.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 09:16, STARS: 1
Thanks for the detailed write-up! Our deductible is only $250, so it’s really no skin to let them hold it for an extended period. It’ll be a nice “bonus” whenever we get that back. I figured it would be better to let them fight it out with the other driver’s insurance company - I assume they have working relationships, so that would make it easier at least.
"Matt Nichelson" (whoismatt)
10/16/2017 at 09:17, STARS: 1
No worries. Like I said, some insurance companies may use a different formula, I just know what Progressive used when I was there. But yeah, at least you will kinda know what to expect now.
"Chuckles" (chucklesw37)
10/16/2017 at 09:18, STARS: 1
That will also depend on where you live. I live in PA, and once it’s totalled you can’t legally drive it. You relinquish the title and get a salvage certificate, which basically means that you own a parts car. Then you have to fix the damage and document the process. Once it’s fixed, you need to have an enhanced inspection performed by a specially certified mechanic, who will take pictures. If it passes, you will then be issued a reconstructed title, at which point you can legally drive it.
I’m just now going through that process. I fixed the car, but nobody told me about the title business so I’ve just been driving around until recently. But it’s a backup car so it doesn’t see a lot of action.
"ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com" (ita97)
10/16/2017 at 09:27, STARS: 1
They all do subrogation with each other all the time. When a driverless tow truck rolled down the street and totaled my MX6 that was parked a block down from it, I initially filled with the other company. After getting a lowball offer and a few week of fighting with them to no avail, I told them to shove it and filled with my own company. They were super easy to deal with and in the end valued the car at almost double what the other parties insurance company wanted to pay me for it.
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
10/16/2017 at 09:29, STARS: 1
This might be hard to hear, but the insurance company isn’t going to be using retail asking prices in their calculation for totaling the car or in what they pay out. I’d expect something more like $6-7k for a 2012 Rogue with that many miles. So get ready to hear that it is going to be totaled. Last time I was rear-ended in a crossover it needed a new hatch, bumper and axle-back exhaust and that came to $3500. Add in quarter-panel and frame damage and $5-6k on the repair is reasonable. At the same time, don’t be too bummed out by that - remember that you can negotiate at the dealer too. If you find a clean Rogue you like (or some other vehicle your wife likes) listed at something like $9k at a dealer (or even private party), explain that you just had one totaled and you are working with an insurance check of $X,XXX. One of my coworkers recently totaled a 2-year old Prius and thought there was no way the payout was even close to what he could get a similar age/mileage used one for. He found a few in town listed at $3-5k above his payout and ended up getting one of them for about $500 over his check when he went in there offering to pay cash from an insurance payout.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 09:37, STARS: 1
Man, I guess I was just way off. I always was under the impression you’d get replacement value for your car - insurance is supposed to make you whole and now we’re going to be worse off because someone crashed into my wife. Bummed!
"McMike" (mcmike)
10/16/2017 at 10:09, STARS: 2
The only time insurance ever makes you whole is if the car isn’t totaled, and the other (insured) driver is at fault.
If totaled, you’ll never get replacement cost. If you keep it, you will have to pay out the buy-back. If it’s your fault, you’ll never get your deductible back.
The worst accident to be in is in your old, reliable daily driver you’ve had for years. It’s only worth $2500, but you’ll never find another one just like it. :(
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
10/16/2017 at 12:01, STARS: 1
In theory insurance does exist to make you whole, but unfortunately it’s one of those cases where the reality is a little different :( That’s why Liberty Mutual has been advertising their optional services that pay out for one model year newer or for a new car if yours is under 2 years/30k miles etc. But remember - like others have said, whatever payout they offer is negotiable to a degree. If it looks too low, you can counter with local ads/classifieds. Just remember that the insurance companies aren’t in the business of paying for dealer profits. They won’t cut you a check for the inflated advertised price of a 2012 on the lot at John Smith Nissan. They will pay you enough to get moving again in a roughly equivalent car. As long as your totaled vehicle isn’t some hunk of junk you can get into a reliable car about the same age with the payout. Maybe it will be from a different make or maybe a model year older or a few more miles, but you should be able to get close. What your coverage doesn’t pay for - that part that really stings - is all the time you sink into looking for that car that you wouldn’t have if some inconsiderate person hadn’t rear-ended you. If you get, say $6500 for your Rogue, you can probably find another on CL advertised for $8000 and haggle it down $6500 but that takes some time and effort that you didn’t have planned.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 12:50, STARS: 0
That’s fair I suppose - it just stinks to not be compensated for things that have arguably made our lives worse. I don’t expect freebies, but we’ll probably have to go through the hassle of determining what car to buy, finding a nice example and then going into more debt, instead of the known quantity Rogue she had owned since new.
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
10/16/2017 at 13:35, STARS: 1
Yeah exactly - a bunch of hassle for something that wasn’t your fault at all. Most important thing is that it sounds like she didn’t get hurt and the car did it’s job keeping her safe. Hopefully everything goes as smoothly as possible the rest of the way!
"NojustNo" (front24200)
10/16/2017 at 14:49, STARS: 1
Trade in is typically close to private party value without the dealer markup. so it can be close to replacement value. And you can always negotiate up from that anyway.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/16/2017 at 14:52, STARS: 0
If we could get private party value out of it, I would probably be satisfied with that.