by "way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
Published 10/11/2017 at 00:29
by "way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
Published 10/11/2017 at 00:29
Tags: Subaru BRZ
; Scion FR-S
; Toyota 86
STARS: 1
How do you like the car? What’s it like at the limit of grip? Is it worth it versus a Miata? Do the seats in the back work? If you don’t have one, what’s your opinion on them?
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
10/11/2017 at 00:35, STARS: 0
With a set of sticky tires they absolutely wreck house at AutoX. Still need to drive one myself.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/11/2017 at 00:41, STARS: 1
They’re almost perfect sports cars on the cheap. They just have strut fronts instead of wishbone. I think the new Miata should have the better chassis even though it is open top. Aluminum everything, dwb fronts, roly poly suspension tuning for autox though. But that can be solved much easier than the BRZ struts.
"AM3R, lost another burner" (am3r17)
10/11/2017 at 00:50, STARS: 0
Fun to drive, I enjoyed the shifter. Tons of aftermarket.
"AestheticsInMotion" (aestheticsinmotion)
10/11/2017 at 00:52, STARS: 5
Available in better colors than the Miata
"RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire" (ricerocketeer2)
10/11/2017 at 00:58, STARS: 0
most concerned about that dip in the power band, if the Everyday Driver guys are to be believed it’s even worse with the refresh.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
"Andrew P. Collins" (andrewpcollins)
10/11/2017 at 01:23, STARS: 3
Funny timing, I spent all day driving one.
Great car.
Remarkably easy to modulate and recall to control at the limit of grip.
The back seat is not viable for human transport.
I don’t own one, but there’s a good chance I will at some point.
"AM3R, lost another burner" (am3r17)
10/11/2017 at 01:24, STARS: 0
Easily fixed with a time, my friend just ordered one for his car for like $300.
"RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire" (ricerocketeer2)
10/11/2017 at 02:00, STARS: 0
and a header, as I’ve read
"Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen" (distraxi)
10/11/2017 at 02:07, STARS: 3
I’ve had a 2013 GT86 for a year. I posted my first impressions here : they haven’t changed much.
You pretty much get what it says on the tin - a decent test drive will tell you if it’s the car for you. I love it, my wife hates it.
Handling at the limit is fricking unbelievable - it’s why you’d buy one. Grip’s decent even on the famous “Prius tyres” (and watch the video of the 86 program’s Chief Engineer talking about why they chose these before you diss them). But the adjustability and sensitivity at or beyond the edge, and the tolerance of hamfistedness, is the real party trick. It rewards good driving, but it won’t bite your head off for a mistake, and even an average driver can slide it around and feel like a driving god. It’s fun on gravel , too. I haven’t found mine as tailhappy as I thought I might on first acquaintance: it’s easy enough to kick it out at round-town speeds, but it’s never done it to me unprovoked.
Against that, it’s noisy and stiff - I wouldn’t want to longhaul more than 3 hours distance in mine - and the interior, while it’s pretty well put together and ergonomically great, isn’t exactly SuperLux.
It’s not fast in a straight line, but as long as you don’t mind rowing the box it’s got plenty for real world use. The 4k torque “hole” really isn’t an issue: after a year with it I can count the number of times I’ve wanted full throttle at that rev range on the fingers of one foot. 5000rpm is the new 3500 in these - you’ve still got 2500 up your sleeve at that speed, so above that’s where you spend your time if you want to move. Forget about wining a traffic light GP though.
For me there was no comparison with a Miata. Firstly because I track it as well as DDing it, and with no cage I wanted a tintop. Second because shopping used I’d have been cross-shopping an NC not an ND. My guess is you’d be happy with either if you like slow-car-fast: just comes down to tintop vs ragtop and how much you need luggage space: the 86's rear seats are useless as seats, but with them down the trunk’s huge (and it’s much bigger than an MX5s even with them up). For what little it’s worth, my stock 86 is faster than any stock Miata I’ve met on my local track.
Reliability wise it’s been as good as gold except for a mild propensity to eat wheel studs. Cheap to run, too: I’m getting a steady 34mpg in the daily commute, though I’ve had it under 10 on the track.
"Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen" (distraxi)
10/11/2017 at 02:19, STARS: 2
In real life - or at least MY real life - you don’t even notice it unless you go looking - it’s just not a rev range you use in practice. You’re either under 3k if you’re cruising, or over 5k if you’re hustling. Even outside the dip, they don’t have enough torque that you’re going to just sit in gear and put your foot down: any time you want serious go you drop a few cogs. At 5k there’s still 2500rpm left - it’s equivalent to 3500 in a car with a 6k redline.
"promoted by the color red" (whenindoubtflatout)
10/11/2017 at 03:37, STARS: 0
It’s the hardtop Miata Mazda won’t make. Even though I bought the car from Hiroshima, I’m really jealous of the legit Torsen diff and the hardtop since a small part of me is forever worried I’ll come back to find the soft-top slashed. They’re also incredibly affordable on the used market.
Either choice is good for AutoX, though don’t expect them to compete mano-e-mano since the SCCA considers the ToyoBaru a D-class car unless you opt for the optional TRD/Subaru suspension. Then it’s in the same class as the ND Miata.
"Tekamul" (tekamulburner)
10/11/2017 at 07:09, STARS: 1
I’ve had mine 4 years. My experience mirrors others’ here.
The dip is a non-issue. You only ever see it in first gear, otherwise you’re above it (fast driving) or below it (commute).
The rear seats are for kids only.
The handling is stellar, and can be modulated at the edge well. With summer tires, it feels like you could drive upside down.
No rattles or squeaks yet, but I’m still under 30k miles.
Last thing, expect to use only non ethanol gas. Otherwise the fuel pump makes a racket.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/11/2017 at 07:56, STARS: 0
Great autox car. The power sucks, but the handling is very good. I actually like the cabin too, and I think they look good.
It’s not really the car for me, but SCCA is now using them for a new spec autocross class and that’s exciting. Almost makes me want one...
To me, it’s a car that you really need to be the right customer for. What are you looking for in it? If it was my money, I’d get a Miata. I prefer the power delivery even if it has less of it and convertibles are great when it’s nice out.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
10/11/2017 at 08:01, STARS: 1
Ive rented both a 2014 FRS and a 2013 BRZ on Turo (about 4 days and ~600 miles of driving both times). I also currently own my 2001 Miata. Both GT86 that I drove were completely stock whereas my Miata is on coilovers, full exhaust, upgraded sway bar, grippy summer tires, and a bride racing seat.
Stock vs stock, the GT86 is WAY stiffer and corners way flatter. Even with the upgrades to my Miata, the 86 is certainly more solid feeling and stiffer. The whole solid roof and 12 years newer thing probably contributes a bit to that. But overall, the miata handles relatively similar after upgrades and behaves quite similar at the limit. Without being super nitpicky, they drive almost the same. Clutch weight, steering weight, balance, and responsive power that is geared well for enjoyment; all nearly identical.
The back seats are useful as storage area. I have a friend who has taken backseat passengers in his FRS but they are typically small asian women and he isnt all that tall either. So I would not seriously consider it for passenger use. Think of it as interior storage space or an extended trunk with the seats down. Interior in general is VERY nice. Thats my favorite part. Seating position is perfect, visibility is great, and everything feels premium enough without being excessive. Its all JUST right for the driving experience.
100% if I had to replace my Miata with something newer, I would pick an early FRS since they are easily around $15k at this point. I would certainly pick this over an NC Miata or S2000. If new? I wouldnt want to pay that sort of money for this car, but I would choose this car before an ND Miata and then plan to just pick up another cheap NB.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
10/11/2017 at 08:05, STARS: 0
Agreed with this. I noticed the dip if I tried to find it. But otherwise, it accelerated like my Miata does. You just rev this shit out of it and it will go. Sure accelerating from a stop is not particularly fast, but thats to be expected for a car like this. And its not like its 80s economy car slow so its perfectly adequate. Fully embodies slow car fast but in general the 86 is much shoutier in looks than it is in performance while a Miata is much more understated.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
10/11/2017 at 08:10, STARS: 0
Agreed with this. I like to think of it as a hugely more practical Miata. It gets better gas mileage, can store more stuff, more passenger space, and the added bonus of a solid roof. I really want to own BOTH an 86 and my NB Miata. But there is so much overlap between the two that it would just be silly. I think the 86 would make a better daily but it also would make a better track car. Once these come down in price a bit more and my Miata gets a little bit more used up, Id highly consider picking up a decent used FRS that was cared for and not crashed.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
10/11/2017 at 08:11, STARS: 0
People without legs still count as humans to transport!
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
10/11/2017 at 08:13, STARS: 0
Ahh so thats why some of the 86s ive seen run in Cstreet! I was really confused and just thought my region was letting them pick whichever since there were so many of them. It didnt seem obvious the delineation between CS/DS but now it makes sense.
"Eric @ opposite-lock.com" (theyrerolling)
10/11/2017 at 08:22, STARS: 2
Those back seats aren’t really seats, they’re vestigal organs to trick the insurance companies.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
10/11/2017 at 08:26, STARS: 0
Did you mean to type “tune”?
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
10/11/2017 at 08:44, STARS: 0
Sounds like every car I’ve owned, aside from my current turbo car.
"fourvalleys" (fourvalleys)
10/11/2017 at 08:46, STARS: 0
This is a myth. They’re there to give the impression to buyers that it could maybe, possibly be practical.
It can, but not because it has back seats.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/11/2017 at 08:51, STARS: 0
I’ve owned both a Miata (NC) and a BRZ, so I can offer my experiences as well.
The short of it - the Miata will be more fun to drive, the BRZ will be a sharper instrument, stock vs stock or mod vs mod. My NC felt infinitely more playful whereas the BRZ felt a lot more serious. That certainly doesn’t mean you can’t have fun with it (you can have tons), but the Miata tends to take itself a lot less seriously.
The BRZ Limited interior splits the difference between the NC and ND and isn’t a terrible place to be, but certainly not luxurious. There’s little to no sound deadening, and the roof is very tinny, so you’ll get lots of noise echoing. It can be fixed if you pull the liner and add a little Dynamat there and in the trunk area, but who wants to add weight?!
As far as grip goes, I honestly felt the NC bit and held harder. That’s likely due to its softer suspension and better tires. The BRZ will remain flat, but as soon as the tires give up it’ll slide. You can fix that pretty easily, though, if you want to. During autocross with the BRZ, I was always chasing its tail around the course - very happy to oversteer on throttle. I wanted a touch more neutrality, so my next mod was going to be a thicker front bar and eventually some good coilovers where I could soften the back a bit.
If I was looking for something in that realm again and didn’t need the security of a fixed roof or the space offered by the vestigial back seat, I’d go for the Miata.
"TheTurbochargedSquirrel" (thatsquirrel)
10/11/2017 at 09:09, STARS: 1
As someone with experience with both a 2013 and a 2017 BRZ I can tell you the 2017 pulls noticeably harder through the middle of the power band. The 17 just feels more powerful overall even if it is only 5hp.
"ateamfan42" (ateamfan42)
10/11/2017 at 09:31, STARS: 0
Also, back seats are handy storage areas once the trunk is full. Sometimes I miss having that bonus storage space with my 2 seater.
"ateamfan42" (ateamfan42)
10/11/2017 at 09:36, STARS: 1
The back seats are useful as storage area. I have a friend who has taken
backseat passengers in his FRS but they are typically small asian women
and he isnt all that tall either. So I would not seriously consider it
for passenger use. Think of it as interior storage space or an extended
trunk with the seats down.
Sounds like the most practical solution is to remove the rear seats entirely. Then you get the max storage space with out the volume taken up by the folded seat backs.
"TheTurbochargedSquirrel" (thatsquirrel)
10/11/2017 at 09:41, STARS: 0
My dad has owned a BRZ since early 2014. He had a 2013 and then traded up to a 2017 Series.Yellow this summer. The chassis is well behaved and the Michelin Primacy tires it comes with really are the limiting factor. The tires start giving up well before the chassis reaches it’s limits. The rear seats are there to lower your insurance rates and nothing more. You could stick some backpacks back there but you are going to have to remove some limbs if you want to put people in the back.
"Khalbali" (khalbali2)
10/11/2017 at 10:15, STARS: 0
I went with a miata because I knew I’d get way more use out of the convertible top than those absurd rear seats.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
10/11/2017 at 10:43, STARS: 1
I imagine the sound deadening provided by the seats being up is a useful feature. As well as some cargo separation during 90% of the car’s use. Sometimes its nice to throw dirty gym clothes in the separate trunk. But yeah I would highly consider this if I bought one. But I’ve thought the same thing about small hatchbacks like the GTI as well. Sure you could actually fit people in the back there but Id still rather have cargo space 99% of the time.
"AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC" (addictedtom3s)
10/11/2017 at 11:37, STARS: 0
It’s a decent car. The materials inside aren’t anything to write home about. It all depends what you intend to use it for. If it’s mostly track then you’ll have a blast. If you will only daily it then you may want to look at something more comfy.
The back seats are okay to transport people but nobody will be comfortable. I’ve fit 4 people in the BRZ. It works as a temporary measure but don’t expect it to be a viable long term solution.
"Eric @ opposite-lock.com" (theyrerolling)
10/11/2017 at 11:41, STARS: 1
It isn’t. Insurance companies rate/group cars based on certain attributes. If the FR-S/BRZ/86 was a 2-seater, it would fall into a different category with higher rates.
"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
10/11/2017 at 11:55, STARS: 0
Yup. Miatas look pretty bland in any stock color.
"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
10/11/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 0
I’ve really just been looking for a small daily car that I can be competitive at autocross with as well. I prefer RWD because I still need to learn to control RWD at the limit (go-karting experience doesn’t really apply) and it’s also more fun.
It’s really a tough choice between this and a Miata. I don’t like the body roll of the Miata but I do like the power and convertibility.
"AM3R, lost another burner" (am3r17)
10/11/2017 at 12:00, STARS: 0
Oh shoot yeah, didn’t catch that lol.
"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
10/11/2017 at 12:00, STARS: 0
There’s a new Series.Yellow near me that I’ve been strongly considering test-driving, how do they compare to the “standard” BRZ?
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/11/2017 at 12:02, STARS: 0
You might want to read up on Solo Spec Coupe if you’re interested in autocrossing it: https://www.scca.com/pages/solo-spec-class
Should be an interesting class, and since it’s a spec kit it’ll be easy to set up the car to be competitive.
"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
10/11/2017 at 12:02, STARS: 1
I plan to take my next car to as many autocross events as possible. I’ve got pretty relaxed standards for what counts as “comfortable” in a car, so I’m sure the BRZ would be fine as a daily for me too.
"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
10/11/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 0
The Miata vs BRZ debate is a really tough one for me. I like convertibles but I don’t like all the body roll. Plus Miatas have less back seat shelf and trunk space.
"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
10/11/2017 at 12:13, STARS: 0
Control at the limit is definitely what I’d be looking for. I’ve still got more to learn about oversteer/understeer correction and a car that can teach me the basics is probably best.
Unrelated note, I’ve got a couple of stories about my 2nd-gen Toyota MR2 that could be fun to publish. Should they be sent to tips@jalopnik.com, or is there another channel? Been meaning to get around to submitting them.
"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
10/11/2017 at 12:17, STARS: 0
That’s quite interesting, might be a serious consideration if I can find a 2016. The 2017 I’ve been researching has the performance package which might put it in a different class.
"MrH42" (MrH42)
10/11/2017 at 12:26, STARS: 0
I had one for 2 or 3 years? Something like that. Pre-ordered a BRZ right when they were coming out.
Had an NC Miata for a few years before that. Now I have an S2000. I’ve driven an ND miata.
The BRZ was probably the least fun out of the entire group honestly. Better all arounder than all of these though.
"TheTurbochargedSquirrel" (thatsquirrel)
10/11/2017 at 12:27, STARS: 1
I can only compare base 2013 BRZ to 2017 Series.Yellow but the Series.Yellow is noticeably more composed than the 2013 (which was already a damn good car to drive). The 2017 moves around less over bumps than the 13 which would wiggle just a little bit over bumps and camber in the road (though it may have a bit to do with the 13 having 25k+ miles vs the 17 which had 700 mi when I drove it). The steering on the 17 is much pointier than the 13. It turns in so well it might as well be telepathic.
The brakes though are amazing. The first time you go to use them you are going to nearly put yourself through the windshield. Once you adapt to how good they are they become the friendliest set of performance brakes I have ever driven. You can just lean on them and modulate them very easily and they give you a ton of confidence. They are also pornographic to look at.
In all I don’t know how the Series.Yellow compares to a non-performance pack 2017 but it is a noticeable upgrade over a base 2013. If you are buying a new BRZ get the performance pack, it is worth it for the Brembos alone. If you are planning to do any performance driving ditch the Primacies. They hold back the chassis performance of the car, especially with the performance pack. They are also the same 215s as on the base cars which looks a bit streched on the wider performance pack rims. These rims should really be using a 225.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/11/2017 at 12:50, STARS: 0
As the only two driver’s sports cars on market, they will be cross shopped harder than anything else out there. I think Mazda makes the decision more difficult than it has to be. They don’t offer any fun colors, except for red. If I want blue, which I really do, I lean towards the BRZ.
Meaningless performance numbers are identical. Both have incredible heritage.
Miatas have the better chassis, dwb fronts, much more caster and included angle. Aluminum on all suspension parts, and body panels. Lighter by a whopping 450 pounds. Better looks inside and out. Much smaller in length for easier parking. Incredible real world fuel economy.
BRZ has the comfort and interior noise reduction that a roof gives. Back shelf is useful for reclining your seat for a nap. More storage space, but who cares its a sports car. Better quicker steering ratio and feel. Comes in WRB. Nice factory aluminum wing. Corners flat just stock. Sweet boxer rumble can be had with headers.
If Mazda ever offers a club 1.5 liter in blue, I buy. But until then I think I see a WRP BRZ after I buy a house...
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/11/2017 at 14:13, STARS: 0
I don’t think the 2017 is eligible for SSC. Stock it will be put into a class, and the factory performance package I’m sure will be classified into a street class.
"Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ" (doge-supreme)
10/11/2017 at 18:52, STARS: 0
I’ve been dailying my BRZ since 2013. I have at one point managed to fit 4 people in the car, but I would recommend against it as I ended up with my knees against the steering wheel. Ride is comfortable enough for daily use, but the car really shines on the twisties. Main thing I advise is swap out the factory tires for something with a bit more grip, I currently run Pilot Sport AS3+s but will be moving to a stickier tire soon after I move. Cargo space is enough for groceries and some bigger items. Power is a bit lacking now that I’ve spent some time with the car, but there’s still enough to get you into trouble. The power really only comes on once you’re above 4,500 RPM, so you need to ring it out and keep the revs high to get the most out of it, momentum is your friend. Only issue I have had with mine in 62k miles is the throwout bearing going out, but I was still able to limp to shop to get it fixed. I have driven for 18 hours straight with only minor breaks and didn’t have my legs fall asleep, which is rare for me. Having driven both the BRZ and the ND Miata, I would recommend the BRZ as there is much more room, and it is far more practical. The performance difference I felt was negligible, and I feel the BRZ would be much easier to deal with on a day to day basis.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
10/12/2017 at 16:05, STARS: 1
I test drove the ND and the toybaru a few months ago before saving (up front and depreciation) a lot on the S2000. Both are honestly good/great cars in my experience. I liked the base FRS more than the BRZ with the brembo/wheel package, the interior wasnt trying so hard and didnt have a graph reminding you of the mid-range dip. but the current FR-S front bumper is a bit ugly imo.
limited test driving, but both were balanced nearing the limits and easily adjusted and neither seemed too upset by any bumps/camber changes. neither felt like washing out getting in the throttle on exit.