by "LJ909" (lj909)
Published 10/10/2017 at 12:05
by "LJ909" (lj909)
Published 10/10/2017 at 12:05
Tags: Muscle Cars
; Mustang
; Camaro
; Challenger
STARS: 0
For years car enthusiast complained that v6 muscle cars were poser specials. Worthy of secretaries and a constant reminder that you could’ve had a v8. Automakers as of late of made base muscle cars better than ever, but still they arent widely accepted.
In the 90's a base Mustang would probably have gotten you laughed at had you showed up at the track. The 4th gen ‘
94
, powered by Ford’s Essex 3.8 V6, produced 145 horses (150 in ‘
96
!). Even though it had 215 ft lbs of torque, it was gutless and the definition of base model.
The Camaro from the same time was powered by GM’s 3.4 Liter L32 V6 that was specifically used in the F Body cars. It pushed out 160 horses. It was only used until 95 when a 3.8 liter became standard. Still the definition of rental special and a joke performance wise. The Challenger wasnt even around in the 90's as we all know.
Even well into the 21st century there were struggles. For a while last decade, the Mustang was the sole muscle car. A redesign in 05 saw really no engine improvements. The Mustang still started with a big ass under powered V6, this time around a 4.0 with 210 horses. I’ve never encountered anyone that liked that engine. It was used all the way until 2010.
It wasn’t until recently, as in a few years ago, that automakers got their act together regarding the base models. GM was the first to hit the ground running. The debut of Camaro in ‘
09 saw the application of GMs 3.6 high feature V6 producing 312 horses
The Challenger coming out at the same time had Chrysler’s 3.5 “high output” V6 putting put 250 horses that saw duty in the LX cars since their debut. It was ok of an engine but with the company’s position at the time I doubt they could have gotten something better.
Ford answered GM in ‘
11
debuting a new 3.7 V6 producing 300 horses and is probably one of the best V6s ever made (IMHO).
FCA would come to the table with a new V6 for the Challenger around the same time as the mustangs new V6.It saw the application of the Chrysler’ 3.6 Pentastar v6 producing 305 horses.
So why the hate on V6 muscle cars? I never understood it. The V6s in these cars shame the V8s of the past. They all produce well over 300 horses, sound good for base models (especially the Mustang with an aftermarket exhaust. It’s almost reminiscent of Nissans VQ) and deliver gas mileage that past engineers could only dream of with the size and power they have. They are also cheaper to insure.
Having driven all 3 V6 versions myself I would have to say I wouldn’t think twice about getting one, and I actually wish I had gotten a V6 instead of the Ecoboost. The performance on a daily driving basis is way more than adequate. Aftermarket support for some of these engines has grown as well. Sadly the 3.7 at Ford is on its way out for 2018. I think Chevy might follow suit soon.
So why do you guys think or hate on base muscle cars? We complained and they delivered with a combination of power, fuel efficiency and affordability that make these cars not good new buys but fantastic used buys.
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
10/10/2017 at 12:09, STARS: 2
Mostly because up until now NA V6s were gutless and sounded awful, now they’re basically obsolete because of the turbo-4s.
I’m still hoping for a TT V6 GT500
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
10/10/2017 at 12:09, STARS: 2
I don’t think it’s hate, it’s just that they are typically the lesser versions of the car performance-wise.
"TheHondaBro" (wwaveform)
10/10/2017 at 12:10, STARS: 1
Well for starters, two of those three aren’t even muscle cars. However the etymology has been twisted too far that it really doesn’t matter anymore.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
10/10/2017 at 12:13, STARS: 0
The old V8's feel slow to me and the new V6's aren’t much different.
The V6 Camaro isn’t terribly slow, but it’s also not any quicker than a G37.
I always assume that the V6 muscle car owner isn’t concerned about performance. They’re just in it for the muscle car look. But there’s nothing wrong with that.
Also, the Mustang sounds nothing like the VQ. The Mustang V6 sounds kinda bad.
"kanadanmajava1" (kanadanmajava1)
10/10/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 4
I dislike V6s but I’m fine with an inline 6.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 0
Yea thats true. They were gutless and terrible for so long it could be hard to appreciate them now. I still prefer the V6's over the turbo 4's though. Maybe a next gen Shelby will get an Ecoboost V6. We saw what they could do with the GT.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
10/10/2017 at 12:16, STARS: 1
Quite.
"Vimto" (smudgey)
10/10/2017 at 12:16, STARS: 3
I drive a 2013 Mustang (3.7L) V6 manual. It has more than enough power to put a smile on my face and I just drove 560 miles averaging 35 MPG.
Before buying my ‘13 I test drove a ‘15 ecoboost and found it uninteresting. This is simply my opinion but I will take my Cyclone over any other Mustang any
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 12:22, STARS: 1
The V6 Camaro doesnt feel as fast to me as the V6 Mustang does, but as an owner im kinda biased. The 3.7 in the Mustang has a kind of burble to it, and it sounds way better exhaust wise and at throttle than the 4's. I cant stand the way my Ecoboost sounds under hard acceleration.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 12:24, STARS: 0
Nice. It does get good mileage. Better than most people realize. I wish I had gotten the V6 when I got my 15' Ecoboost. But Ford positioning the Ecoboost as the upper trim means I cant get the equipment that I have with the V6 and I hate it. I would much rather have the V6 but that means loosing the bigger Sync screen, driving modes, leather and custom reconfigurable interior lighting.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
10/10/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 1
I think the V6 sounds better than the 4, but it doesn’t sound quite as nice as the other V6's that come to mind, like the Nissan mills (MG, VQ, VR). It’s just a matter of taste I suppose. I know plenty of people who dislike all V6 noise and those who think the VQ sounds like rocks in a blender.
Personally, I think the V6 is likely one of the best performance engine available. Even more so than a V8 (yes, I said it).
The only engine that is lighter is an inline 4, but the V6 is not as long and not as tall as the 4. It fits in most applications without much trouble and they are capable of revving high and making decent power with boost.
It’s like a V8, but lighter and shorter (better for weight distribution). Though the V8 has the obvious advantages of displacement and lower center of gravity (90 degree vs 60 degree bank).
"Sweet Trav" (thespunbearing)
10/10/2017 at 12:34, STARS: 1
VQ’s are the worst sounding V6 of all time. a 2.8L Chevy 60 degree V6 with a rod knock and a blown out muffler sounds better.
"Vimto" (smudgey)
10/10/2017 at 12:37, STARS: 2
I got a base model, I preferred cloth and not having a big screen in the dash or gauges.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
10/10/2017 at 12:37, STARS: 2
You described why the stigma exists - the earlier version of each of those cars was TERRIBLE. The 3.8L and 4.0L V6's Mustangs came with were really quite bad, as were some of the early Camaro engines. Remember the Iron Puke? It wasn’t a V6, but graced the base Camaro just the same.
In the current models, there’s no reason for the stigma. I’ve yet to drive a Challenger with a Pentastar, but can vouch for both the 3.7L in the Mustang and the 3.6L in the Camaro as being great engines.
"Pickup_man" (zekeh)
10/10/2017 at 12:40, STARS: 1
Couple reasons, the first and biggest is the fact that there’s decades of slow gutless V6 stereotype to overcome. Despite how good the new ones might be all of those years of terrible V6's will be hard to move on from.
Second, even though most pony cars/muscle cars have always had a base 6 or 4 cylinder engine, the V8 was the one to have. These types of cars are styled and marketed as fast, exciting, sporty cars, and when it’s an American car, that means it has a V8, no exceptions.
Third, because they’re still base engines. Even though the V6 might be a great engine, it’s still the low performance option, and when buying this type of car why would you not get the V8, unless of course you can’t afford it.
Personally I’ve got nothing against the V6 cars, and for those out there who enjoy or even prefer the V6 more power to ya. I’m just part of the group who’s had an image drilled into their head as to what these types of cars are supposed to be, and try as I might I can’t get past that, if I buy one of these cars, it’s gotta be a V8.
"dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford" (dtg11)
10/10/2017 at 12:41, STARS: 0
I really want the new V6 Camero, it’s plenty powerful, sounds great, and still somewhat affordable. Plus better handling than the V8 bc it’s lighter.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
10/10/2017 at 12:42, STARS: 1
I know a lot of people who feel that way. I think they sound pretty nice - especially at high rpm.
At the end of the day, it’s an engine that makes as much as 350hp NA in stock form, weighs less than an LS, and revs out to 7,500 rpm. That’s not all that bad in my book - even if it sounds terrible to some.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 12:51, STARS: 1
Probably because neither the V6 nor V8 cars can corner. So the only performance metric these buyers care about is straight line speed. If the V6 is slower than the V8 then it is automatically the poser car no matter how much faster it is than most other cars out there.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 12:52, STARS: 0
All those reasons you mentioned is why I had been considering trading my Ecoboost for a V6. The power delivery and packaging is worth loosing all the other trim goodies.
"Dasupersprint - base trim is enough" (dasupersprint)
10/10/2017 at 12:55, STARS: 0
I had a 2014 Mustang and I didn’t want the V8. It was more than enough and the fuel economy was great. It sounded awesome too. Now that Ford killed the Mustang V6 I think the one to get is the Camaro with the updated 3.6L (360hp!)
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 12:57, STARS: 1
Thats what I had mentioned to someone else, they let the base model be shit for so long that possibly now you cant really forgive and forget but you can acknowledged. Both the V6's in the Mustang and Camaro are great and are more than adequate for daily driving. The Pentastar in the Challenger is great but thirsty.
"Sweet Trav" (thespunbearing)
10/10/2017 at 13:09, STARS: 0
The highest VQ rating I can find is 325/270, I’d still take any LS motor over a VQ every day of the week and twice on Sunday, any version is a $117 cam swap away from 400+ hp and if you build them right, they’ll sing at 8000 RPM too.
"feather-throttle-not-hair" (feather-throttle-not-hair)
10/10/2017 at 13:14, STARS: 1
I had a Celica from 1988 that had more horsepower (stock) than any of those “Muscle cars” until 2005.
Celica.
1988.
I have no problem with the new(ish) breed of 300+ hp V6 pony cars. Honestly, if the V8 versions didn’t exist I’d think they were all pretty damn cool cars. Well...okay i’d think the mustang and Camaro were cool. But the very existence of a fire breathing 400+ hp engine stuffed into the same chassis, just diminishes the V6 versions a little bit for me.
I’d still drive a new Mustang with the V6 and performance pack. Its pretty sexy and sounds good.
"BeaterGT" (beatergt)
10/10/2017 at 13:17, STARS: 1
To me, they are pony cars whereas the V8 models are muscle cars. The new turbo models fall somewhere in the middle, I’ll call them unicorns or abominations.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 13:17, STARS: 2
Not to mention you can get the 1LE package on the V6.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
10/10/2017 at 13:20, STARS: 0
370Z Nismo: 350hp. G37 IPL: 348hp. The VQ37 can make 400hp at the crank with bolt ons and rev to 8k with just a tune - though it would run out of breath that high so it’s pointless.
Coming from an LS6, I understand the love for LS engines. I will say that a cam swap is going to cost more than $117. If you want to pinch pennies and keep your stock valve springs, that’s fine, but I didn’t want to take that risk. You’re also not revving to 80000 rpms without some valvetrain work. Even then, most off the shelf cams don’t make decent power above 7200 rpms - and that’s not even factoring most stock head castings. Very little point in revving most LS builds over 7500 rpms.
I have a VR30 now that should make about 420whp with nothing but the inexpensive tuner that I am using right now. So I’m good for the time being.
"Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing." (granfury)
10/10/2017 at 13:20, STARS: 1
If I was in the market for this type of vehicle I wouldn’t hesitate to take the V6 option. Nowadays they have sufficient power (a Mustang GT had 175 when I was in high school...) and sound great, plus there’s the fact that they are less complex than a 4 cylinder turbo. I really don’t need 400+ HP, nor do I want it, and have learned to be happy with what is allegedly ‘less’.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 3
It’s because V8s are awesome and anyone that thinks the V6 is “good enough” simply hasn’t spent enough time in the V8 version of the same car.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
10/10/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 1
Just throw some boost at it and piss off the haters.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 13:23, STARS: 2
Not the same as the SS 1LE though. The 1LE package on the V6 is basically just some suspension bits from the SS.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 13:25, STARS: 2
You can’t get a V6 of the current Mustang with performance pack. Wasn’t an option.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 13:26, STARS: 2
I don’t understand the less complex argument. Modern engines are complex, full stop. A turbo adds very little complexity, it’s just a spinny thing and some extra pipes.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 13:27, STARS: 3
I don’t know what you’re talking about, the current Camaro and current Mustang can corner very well.
"haveacarortwoorthree2" (haveacarortwoorthree2)
10/10/2017 at 13:30, STARS: 1
Setting aside the Challenger (which needs that bigger engine to get that whale up to speed (sorry, not a Challenger/Charger fan)), you need a V8 because America! The V8s in those cars are the top of the line in terms of performance, specs, and sound.
But what you really want to do is take a V8 and then add a supercharger! Team USA! (Wait, one of those cars is British. Oops.)
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 13:33, STARS: 0
It looked great. It sucks that Ford is killing the V6. V6 buyers are going to probably go over to Chevy but even then I think Chevy might kill the V6.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 13:37, STARS: 0
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 13:39, STARS: 2
Yeah, that ZL1 1LE sure is a pig in corners.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
10/10/2017 at 13:44, STARS: 4
A spinny thing with some extra pipes and external oil lines and additional cooling lines and additional sensors and actuators to make sure it doesn’t overboost or run lean, and if any of those things fail it’s an expensive repair job.
But personally, I just don’t care for how they drive. Instant response of an NA engine is worth a few lost HP to me.
"feather-throttle-not-hair" (feather-throttle-not-hair)
10/10/2017 at 13:54, STARS: 0
You’re right, i looked it up right after posting. I’ll revise my statement to “Newish mustang with the V6 and performance pack” ;)
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 14:01, STARS: 0
Not the Ecoboost. Its complex.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 14:03, STARS: 0
I have. The V8's are great but the V6's are good enough for daily driving. Unless you’re going to track meets every weekend and autocrossing, 300 horses on a daily basis is more than enough for stop light races.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 14:03, STARS: 1
But the cyclone is too.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
10/10/2017 at 14:07, STARS: 0
I had a Celica from 1988 that had more horsepower (stock) than any of those “Muscle cars” until 2005.
But the base Celica from ‘88 had 115hp. That might have embarassed the true “hair dresser” version of the Mustang in ‘88, but the 3.8L Essex or even the weakest V8 4.2L would have made more power.
As for Apples to Apples comparing to the 190hp AllTrac, the ‘86 Mustang SVO made 200hp from it’s turbo 4cyl.
One thing that many people forget, the Mustang used to be a “fun styled coupe” with a fast option. Same as every other muscle car until the mid ‘00s. Thinking the base model needed to have horsepower too only happened in the past 10-15 years.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 14:08, STARS: 1
The V6 is lighter though.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 14:13, STARS: 0
I just cant stand it really. It really is the main thing I dislike about my Mustang. Its unrefined, droans under hard acceleration (not to mention the woosh of the turbo isnt appealing), doesn’t get much better mileage and the engine is long and tall.
"Kanaric" (Kanaric1)
10/10/2017 at 14:17, STARS: 0
It’s not a muscle car. The power, torque in particular, it makes is low for such a large massive car. If they were like 370Z or Audi TT weight with that engine they would be fine, but even then it would be a sports car and not a muscle car.
I would never buy a v6 of one of these cars. If I was looking at that I would buy something else like a Scion FRS, a GTI, WRX, or something like that. That or a used vehicle of equivalent price. If I wanted a car with a V6 for some other reason I would get a 370z. I don’t get comments wher epeople are talking how “good handling” a v6 camaro 1le 3800 bus would be. I can pick up a 370Z and put wide tires on it too.
The v6 version of these cars are just cool looking commuter cars. Same for the turbo 4 versions, these cars are too large for that kind of engine. To me they are poser cars. Like someone who builds a flashy 328i and debadges it, idk how many of these cars i’ve seen debadged. Meanwhile nobody debadges the 5.0 symbol on a Mustang GT.
People here have strange opinions though, that diesel miata wagon meme, hating skylines lol, and loving v6 muscle cars. Everyone has different opinions but if you went into any car community other than this almost nobody would agree. I think nobody in any enthusiast track community or tuner community would have any interest in these cars what so ever unless it was because they had too slim of a budget. They can even be garbage to mod, like the Mustang with it’s v6 drive shaft issues.
At least the 4 cylinder cars could have some tuner cred if done right.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 14:19, STARS: 0
There is a big difference between getting a 4,000 lb whale to “corner” with wide tires, giant wheels, big brakes, magnetic shocks, and ridiculous static negative camber, and getting a lightweight well engineered car to dance around corners like it’s a part of your body. A “performance” SUV/crossover from Porsche or any luxury brand will corner as well as any Mustang out there. Does that mean they can corner?
I guess it’s all perspective. If you live in some flat farmland with the only corners being some wide sweepers here and there, it would be easy to think a Mustang can corner. If you come to the Bay area and drive on hwy 9 and 35 and skyline blvd, you will see Miatas and other lightweight sports cars and my definition of handling camp going around downhill hairpins. Once you drive a Miata on those roads, you will understand.
"Kanaric" (Kanaric1)
10/10/2017 at 14:19, STARS: 2
This, that and the V8s are not that much money. Why on earth would you buy a 1le V6 when you can get like a V8 base Mustang GT with track package for around the same price if not less even? No rational person would do this lol.
That or buy a 2 year older car and put wider tires on and suspension. There you go. Your own 1le.
It’s just a dumb buying decision unless you are ONLY looking for a commuter car.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 14:25, STARS: 0
The 370Z though doesnt handle well and its well known. Put that on a track against a 1LE Camaro and it would get left behind in the twists. The V6 in the Mustang at least has some aftermarket support behind it, the Ecoboost does as well but personally I wouldn’t be interested in tuning it. I really dislike the engine. I wouldnt call them poser cars though. 300 horses isnt a lot compared to the V8's of course, but its also not underpowered either. Its fast enough on a daily basis. To me if you must have a V8 than more power to you, but too many people care about perceptions more than anything.
"feather-throttle-not-hair" (feather-throttle-not-hair)
10/10/2017 at 15:05, STARS: 0
You’re right it wasn’t an apples to apples comparison, but my point was more that those pony cars basically had one thing going for them: Straight line speed. The mustang didn’t handle, it didn’t have awd, it wasn’t particularly comfortable and it wasn’t practical. You take away that good-for-1988 grunt and what do you have? Not much. The base model celica at least got good mileage and could handle a little bit.
But also, a 2004 mustang should not be less powerful than a 1988 celica, qualifiers be damned.
Also, SVO mustangs are fuggin cool.
"2Fast2Furious: Rotary Powered" (2fast2furiousfc3s)
10/10/2017 at 15:11, STARS: 1
It safe to assume most modern muscle cars (these aren’t even muscle these are full on sports cars, except the Challenger of course) handle better than a 30 year old convertible with no chassis strength. A Miata may handle, may be “affordable” (the Miata tax sure ruined that) but I would never say a Miata can out handle modern cars straight up. Maybe an nd Miata I can see, but definitely not an na
"cletus44 aka Clayton Seams" (cletus44)
10/10/2017 at 15:12, STARS: 2
Here’s the thing. A V6 is fine, acceptable and not bad. But it has zero advantages over a V8 other than fuel mileage and initial purchase price. And those are wimpy things. So the V8 is best because more is more. it’s a god damn muscle car, excess is the entire point.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 15:21, STARS: 0
Uhh okay if you think a sorted out NA with its 2000 lb weight on some modern shocks and springs and cambered alignment and a CoG lower than a BRZ won’t handle just because of chassis strength, you need to try it. I have not felt the need to chassis brace because it has been solid.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
10/10/2017 at 15:40, STARS: 0
You’re right it wasn’t an apples to apples comparison, but my point was
more that those pony cars basically had one thing going for them:
Straight line speed. The mustang didn’t handle, it didn’t have awd, it
wasn’t particularly comfortable and it wasn’t practical. You take away
that good-for-1988 grunt and what do you have? Not much. The base model
celica at least got good mileage and could handle a little bit.
The Mustang wasn’t horrible at handling, it just wasn’t as good as the import competition. But even though it wasn’t as fast around corners it was a lot of fun to try and push it. And speaking for my own preferences, AWD isn’t a benefit, and a V8 is much easier and more fun to drive fast than a turbo 4.
But what were you saying about practicality? The Foxbody hatchback might be most practical muscle car ever. Tons of cargo room in the back, a tall roof so that adults could actually fit in the rear seats, and I could get close to 30mpg on a flat highway in my ‘86 GT. Plus, you could get the 225hp GT mustang for the same price as the 145hp GT Celica. The base level Mustang was nearly $3k cheaper (24% less!)
Again, the part you missed, the Mustang used to be a basic entry level car with a fast option. In ‘88 the 4cyl coupe cost $9,209, a base level Taurus started at $11,806. The base mustang was a step up from the Escort, not a sports car to rival the 3 series.
But also, a 2004 mustang should not be less powerful than a 1988 celica, qualifiers be damned.
Why? Why should the cheapest 2004 Mustang be superior than the most powerful Celica from 1988? Why should a car with a base price under $19k when it was new compete with a car that cost almost $21k (not adjusted for inflation) 16 years earlier?
It is impressive that the Cellica All-Trac had enough power to rival base level pony cars for so long, but that’s a brag about the high end Celica, not a complaint about the V6 Mustangs.
"jordang1028" (jordang10228)
10/10/2017 at 15:55, STARS: 0
I’m jealous of your not needing/wanting more power. I’ve had my 17 GT performance pack since December and all I can think about is boooooossssst! Shooting for around 650 reliable hp at the rear wheels.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 16:14, STARS: 0
Go ahead, be a douchy elitist. I could run fuckin circles around you in my Mustang at an autocross event. Yeah, we don’t have a lot of curves in Wichita, but you do know cars can drive, right? They can go places that have curves, shocking I know, yet I’ve done it.
I’m not saying a Mustang is as nimble as a Miata, but to say they can’t handle is ignorant of what these cars have become capable of in the last few years.
"feather-throttle-not-hair" (feather-throttle-not-hair)
10/10/2017 at 16:17, STARS: 0
I’ll concede that everything you wrote makes sense logically. And truth be told, i’m 34 years old, back in the 80's and early 90's i was around, but i wasn’t shopping for cars. So price was a...lets call it secondary concern to me.
I am just going through my reasons for my irrational dislike of V6 pony cars before we hit the 300 hp era. And yeah, some of my reasons are pretty irrational, but I still can’t help but feel like Ford/Chevy kinda phoned it in for their V6 offerings for quite a while there. I mean, hell 210 hp from a v6 just wasn’t impressive by 2005 standards. If we take out the Celica (you’re right, bad comparison) and just look at the automotive landscape in 2005.....V6 accords and altimas were what, 30 hp up on the (v6) mustang? Its just hard for me to reconcile “sports car” with the kind of performance one got from a mustang of the era.
Again though, Ford and Chevy get credit for stepping up their game as none of these complaints are valid anymore. Also, my beef is specifically the low end versions from that era. Mustang GT’s and LT/LS powered camaro/firebirds are fine. I get whats happening there and it makes complete sense to me.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 16:19, STARS: 1
I wouldn’t say it’s dumb to save some money and get the non-V8, but it is really silly to pretend it’s better or as good.
I had an Ecoboost. At the time it was what fit my needs and budget. And it was a great car in its own right, there was no shame in it, but the V8 I have now is better. And cheaper!
There is an interesting disconnect between non-performance versions of cars that have performance cars and the small engined pony cars. Take a BMW 335 and compare it to an M3: no one is making fun of you for buying the 335 even though the M3 outperforms it, yet if you buy a V6 Mustang you’ll have a hard time convincing anyone you made a good decision. It’s because the perception of these cars and the character they’ve had for years is defined as much by their engine as it is by their nameplate.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 16:20, STARS: 1
I actually would have deleted the 5.0 badge if there weren’t holes behind it. I think the car looks better without it.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 16:22, STARS: 0
The Ecoboost engine is great with a tune. Massive torque, reasonably linear once you get the turbo spooled up, pretty damn responsive for a turbo too. Anything more than a tune like a big turbo though, you’d just be better off putting that money towards a GT.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 16:29, STARS: 1
I liked it when I had it. Tuned, mild exhaust. It sounded like a smooth 4 cylinder with a little bit of a growl, it sounded like a freakin jet engine from the outside under hard acceleration, had gobs of torque, and got really good gas mileage.
I haven’t driven a V6 Mustang so I don’t know how it compares. The V8 gets garbage gas mileage but it’s worth it, just do it. Especially since they really haven’t held their value that well, you can get a loaded GT used for less than a premium EB new.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 16:30, STARS: 0
Sure, but not THAT much lighter, especially if you factor in power. If you want a light, decently powerful Camaro get the turbo. It’s lighter than the V6
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
10/10/2017 at 16:39, STARS: 0
I am just going through my reasons for my irrational dislike of V6
pony cars before we hit the 300 hp era. And yeah, some of my reasons are
pretty irrational, but I still can’t help but feel like Ford/Chevy
kinda phoned it in for their V6 offerings for quite a while there.
Now that’s something I can completely agree on. It’s not like they couldn’t make a decent V6, the 3800 in the 4th gen camaro is the one exception. It was a surprisingly snappy engine, even though it was only rated at 200hp. The 3400, or the 3.8L Mustang were no match whatsoever. Honestly, I would have been fine with the lesser HP ratings if they just responded like they were bolted to a pony car. Maybe that was more a problem with the tune or the transmission or gearing, but they just didn’t want to move the car when you hit the gas.
They really weren’t sports cars, but they should have at least been fun to drive.
I do rather miss the practicality of the older pony cars though. I can’t sit in the back seat of the new Mustang or Camaro, and the trunk opening is pointless. Is it that weird to want a muscle car that can haul my 4 person family?
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 16:42, STARS: 0
Whoa whoa whoa there buddy calm it a bit. This is a friendly discussion. No need to bring up how well you can place mid-pack in a lower tier at a parking lot with some cones. I never doubted your car’s ability to throw around its weight. It’s just not going to be fun or nimble and involving as a purpose built sports car. Don’t worry man! You can still blow by me at the next red light.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 16:46, STARS: 0
Oh, go blow your nose dude.
I’m glad my friends that own Miata’s aren’t as far up their own ass as you are. I like the cars, but I probably wouldn’t if I had to deal with your attitude anytime I approached one.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 16:52, STARS: 0
I’m honestly not trying to be snotty at all...I’m just saying Miatas are really good at handling mountain roads. I’ve also stated that the Mustang is great for stoplight drags and can pull a lot of Gs and speed through corners. Why is it snotty to recognize and appreciate different cars for their obviously different purposes? I’m not the one trying to argue that the Miata is a straight line monster. Instead you’re the one trying to convince me that the Mustang is some canyon carving monster.
"Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing." (granfury)
10/10/2017 at 17:01, STARS: 1
I dunno - maybe I’m just old. Over the years I’ve had a number of fast cars including a GTI, some other modified VWs, an E-Class, a 968, a couple of BMWs including an E34 with bunch of Dinan stuff. I’ve also come close to having my license suspended for numerous speed-related issues (same thing goes for my mother who got numerous tickets in a Vanagon, so I know where my lead foot comes from). I’m content with having enough of a car, instead of the crazy excess I was used to. The Mazda5 6MT is still a fun vehicle, just not a fast one (by today’s standards). I’m getting my pleasure from modifying it in other ways other than performance, mostly putting back all the toys I had to give up to get the manual transmission.
"JR1" (type35bugatti)
10/10/2017 at 17:06, STARS: 1
I am sure it has already been mentioned but the sound is definitely a factor to pick a V8 over a V6. And of course it is more emotionally appealing choice.
"jonny11quest" (jonny11quest)
10/10/2017 at 17:21, STARS: 1
335 guys bash on 328 guys all the time. Common response to a 328 guy looking to add power is sell it and get a 335. I think the same applies to v6 mustang guy looking to add power. There are some similarities.
"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake)
10/10/2017 at 17:28, STARS: 0
When did I say that?
Let’s review: you said the car can’t corner. I said they can corner very well. Where in that did I say it was a canyon carving monster? You were just too busy discrediting my statement to realize how snotty you were being. “Come try a real road, then see how you feel harumph”
Whether or not the cars have a different purpose doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of other things. You could really deliver your opinion in a more reasonable way than you did. I could do the same, but the implications of your farmland statement really irked me, and you only doubled down later.
"jonny11quest" (jonny11quest)
10/10/2017 at 17:29, STARS: 0
Haha, I have a debadged 328i. Viewing a badge as important is a strange opinion in my opinion. I debadged because I’m OCD about symmetry and my car is a 3 series with a 3.0 liter fuel injected engine. 328i makes no sense. I could throw a 330i on there. But in no way am I trying to “pose” as a more powerful 3 series. I specifically sought out a naturally aspirated straight six magnesium alloy block car because the car has merits in its own right. If someone would’ve offered me a 335i for half the price of mine, I would have passed.
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
10/10/2017 at 17:43, STARS: 1
The Wichitoppos went twisty driving in Arkansas. The two “fat muscle cars” (Jake’s mustang and my Trans Am) were the only cars that didn’t suffer severe brake fade/fires. The Miata and WRX both had to slow down during runs to cool their brakes.
Don’t be such an insufferable Miata elitist, they’re good cars but they’re not the second coming of Christ.
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
10/10/2017 at 17:45, STARS: 1
I remember a certain 370Z review that compared the engine noise and smoothness to a bus. I think that was rude to the bus.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 17:47, STARS: 0
I didn’t even know you lived in a flat part of the country. Nothing personal there, my bad. I included that because these cars’ fun factor is so dependent on what kind of roads are near you and such. If I lived where you do, I would much rather have any Mustang over a Miata.
And yeah I have a hard time trying to convey a lighter or friendlier tone through text but looking back on it now it sounds like I have my nose up in the air quite a bit. Neither of our cars are Porsches so they can’t just be good at
everything. Let’s just say my Miata is the perfect car for taking me to the hair salons up and down my favorite mountain road and your Mustang is great for cruising, accelerating, cornering, and generally being badass.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
10/10/2017 at 17:54, STARS: 1
I was an asshole.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 18:06, STARS: 0
I wouldnt want to dump that much money into this engine anyway. Im waiting to see how far GT prices fall once the 18's hit lots.
"LJ909" (lj909)
10/10/2017 at 18:12, STARS: 1
I just find it unrefined for the premium they charge for it. I mean its impressive they got the power they did out of it for its size. I just dont see it as worth it over the V6. The fuel gains are negligible too compared to the V6. You gain 2 mpg’s in city and highway over the V6. Real world its even closer.
"feather-throttle-not-hair" (feather-throttle-not-hair)
10/10/2017 at 18:19, STARS: 0
I do rather miss the practicality of the older pony cars though. I can’t sit in the back seat of the new Mustang or Camaro, and the trunk opening is pointless. Is it that weird to want a muscle car that can haul my 4 person family?
I feel like safety regulations have done a few things. They have saved a bunch of lives, they’ve made blind spots enormous and ubiquitous and they’ve destroyed interior space.
I was looking at Mustangs the other day and holy hell, that is a huge car for the amount of interior space on offer. I’ve also parked my 350Z next to a friend’s 240SX. The two cars are nearly identical in wheelbase and overall length, the Z is taller. And yet...the 240SX has back seats and a nice deep trunk, not to mention plenty of space under the hood for the LS that sits there.
Anyway, back on topic, you also bring a really good point up about “snappiness” or just engines that generally are happy to perform. Its not all about power necessarily. Delivery is nearly as important.
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
10/10/2017 at 19:00, STARS: 0
As a NA6 and now NB2 Miata owner who has driven an Ecoboost Mustang and a V6 1LE Camaro (as well as several NDs, toyobaru, WRX STi, etc.): hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Opinions are fine but you’re just stating incorrect facts.
"thatsmr" (thatsmr)
10/10/2017 at 19:09, STARS: 2
Same reason many hate on NpoCp cars, slow car fast cars, Fulvias, you name it. Just like there is always going to be someone bigger/stronger/smarter, just love your life and let the haters hate. The guy who bought the hellcat can barely afford the payment, let alone the tires he needs at 8k miles....
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
10/11/2017 at 09:43, STARS: 1
It’s not like the interior is that much smaller than the Foxbody, it’s got more front legroom, only slightly less rear legroom, and it has a couple cubic feet more cargo room than the hatchback.... it’s just laid out in a way that’s difficult to use.
The hatchback Fox has a flat top roof line and a flat back seat that folds down for a larger and taller cargo area. The 2017 has deep dish bucket seats that make it difficult to mount a car seat, a roof line that cuts down severely on head room (The glass is directly above the rear seat passenger’s head), and when the rear seats are folded down, all you have is a small pass through.
I can understand the structural advantages of a trunk vs hatchback, but other cars have a lift back without endangering the passengers. The roof shape and the rear seat design are pure visual style, and the functionality of the car is affected greatly.
The car did get bigger, but the interior shouldn’t be so cramped.
"Kanaric" (Kanaric1)
10/11/2017 at 11:29, STARS: 0
The badge isn’t important, just that removing it on the lesser model will always be seen as someone who is trying to hide they bought the lesser model. People will say it’s not “posing” all the time but it is. Nobody removes the SS badge from a v8 camaro or the M badge from a M3.
"jonny11quest" (jonny11quest)
10/11/2017 at 11:53, STARS: 0
You speak a lot in absolutes and I disagree 100%. “Always be seen” nope. “People will say... but it is” nope. “Nobody removes” nope.
I believe that YOU will always see it that way, and YOU believe that it is, and YOU don’t know anyone who removes...
Your original comment comes across like you have some moral superiority complex. I’m a part of the “enthusiast track community” and I see V6 muscle cars, base model 3 series, M cars, boxsters, cayman gt4s, one guy has a McLaren, a spec racer Panoz, etc. and we all have interest in each others cars. Our interest is taking fun cars to the track. Plenty of base model cars are still fun cars.
"Kanaric" (Kanaric1)
10/11/2017 at 14:02, STARS: 0
The only reason you disagree 100% is because you are the lesser model buying debadger. The target of criticism will obviously disagree.
"jonny11quest" (jonny11quest)
10/11/2017 at 14:29, STARS: 0
Again, you’re claiming to know my reasons. You claim to know how people will see things and why they do things. You’re not all-knowing. Some people are poseurs, some people buy v6 bc that’s all they can afford, and some people have no interest in base models. There’s also people that make decisions for completely different reasons that are unknown to you. Not everyone fits your stereotype, myself included.
"jordang1028" (jordang10228)
10/11/2017 at 18:45, STARS: 0
I hear ya. I still get a huge kick out of my old ass 240sx with a 200k mile single cam truck motor haha!
"Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing." (granfury)
10/11/2017 at 19:00, STARS: 0
And to be honest, my old bone-stock ‘81 E21 320i was actually more fun to toss around than the Dinan E34. Lower limits means it’s easier to exploit them without the potentially lethal consequences. If I were to get another BMW, it would probably be another E21, this time with an I6, like a 323i or maybe even a simple 320. The M10 was a decent enough motor, but I’d like to try this chassis with a 6.
"RT" (rt-p)
10/30/2017 at 13:39, STARS: 1
These V6 muscle cars are much better cars than they used to be, but this niche is already filled by other cars. If you’re going with the lower-displacement route, you might as well choose a car which is better-built and less huge.
Imagine these but in a less expensive trim, that’s what they’re up against.
"Mr. Mike" (mrmichael79)
03/03/2020 at 07:50, STARS: 0
I have had both. I had a 12 second lt1 camaro and now a high 12 second boosted v6 charger. The Camaro sounded better and was snappy but Charger holds its own. Get over it V8 guys. This is like straight men accepting gay guys as men.
so insecure !!!