Let's talk minivans (and other things with 3 rows of seats)

by "BaconSandwich is tasty." (baconsandwich)
Published 09/20/2017 at 00:02

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STARS: 0

I may soon be in the market for a vehicle capable of hauling a wife, 3 kids, and all the stuff that goes along with them (including a stroller). This would mean 3 kids in car seats at the same time, which pretty much means going to a vehicle that has three rows of seats. I’m not super-well versed in the world of minivans and their kind, so I’m looking for some advice.

Ideally we’d be buying used, not new, but something not too old. Ideally something just down the depreciation curve so that it doesn’t hurt so much, but something that isn’t 10+ years old.

My unjustified opinions are below. Feel free to correct me, or let me know if my opinions are way off base.

Dodge Caravan - the typical minivan. Reasonably inexpensive, but also limited durability. There seems to be a lot of them just over the 200,000 km mark for sale, which maybe says something. Given that this is one of Chrysler’s bread and butter products, I’d assume they can’t screw it up too badly, but Chrysler’s build quality and reliability does have me concerned. I’d be hesitant to buy one with 200,000 km or more on it. Is this opinion unjustified?

Chrysler Town and Country - basically the same as the Caravan, but higher class. I’m guessing these have basically the same drive-train as their cheaper relatives?

Chrysler Pacifica - (the new one, not the old one) - hasn’t been out long enough for prices to drop to the point where I would consider it. :(

Dodge Journey - technically available with a 3rd row, but two major concerns: 1. how easily does the middle row allow access to the rear row? and 2. How’s the build quality?

Volkswagen Routan - basically like a Caravan, but with all the drawbacks of owning a Volkswagen. And no option for a diesel.

Honda Odyssey - one of the nicest minivans out there, but they also seem to be holding their resale value, which is unfortunate for me. The first-gen Odyssey also had traditional doors, not sliding doors, which could make getting kids in/out a bit more difficult. Second-gen ones seem to have had a lot of automatic transmission issues - bad enough to the point where there was a class action lawsuit over it. Newer ones seem nice, but as someone also pointed out here on Oppo earlier today, they may have funky tires and rims because of some silly run-flat system, which means more expensive tire replacements. That can be remedied, but it’s one more thing to be aware of.

Kia Sedona - the newest generation (2015 and newer?) actually looks pretty nice. I haven’t really heard much about them other than that. Because the newer generation hasn’t been out all that long, there doesn’t appear to be a ton of used ones around.

Mazda 5 -I’ve included it in the list, but I suspect there wouldn’t be enough room behind the last row of seats to stuff the kid’s stroller. Maybe I’m wrong. This was honestly going to be my first pick, until Mrs. BaconSandwich saw a picture of the interior and how little room there is behind the rear seats. Someone please tell me I’m wrong. :(

Toyota Sienna - traditional Toyota reliability. Resale values seem reasonably high, but at least they are somewhat common. Not sure if there’s any major common issues with them, but given it’s Toyota, I’d be a bit surprised if there was. My brother has had one, and he hasn’t had any major complaints. He was worried about transmission issues, but I think it ended up being a non-issue. I’d consider one.

Toyota Highlander Hybrid - In the higher trim level, it has two captains chairs in the middle and a bench in the rear, so it technically meets seating requirements. Also has the best fuel economy of anything with three rows of seats, but it would also depend hugely on how much room is behind the last row of seats. Also, swinging doors rather than sliding doors is a mark against it (at least as soon as the kids are old enough to start opening their own doors, which will be a little bit yet).

Ford Flex - Doesn’t seem as practical as an actual minivan, partially because of a lower roof and partially because it doesn’t have sliding doors. Available with a manual transmission, though. I suspect it wouldn’t work for us, unless it’s available with captain’s chairs in the middle row. (You can’t easily fold a bench seat when a kid’s car seat is strapped to it).

Ford Transit Connect - Not a lot of these around, at least ones with seats in the back (as opposed to the modern equivalent of the “free candy” windowless van). If I could find one that was used at a reasonable price, I’d consider it.

Telsa Model S or X - Model S has optional jump seats in the back, so it counts for seats. Both are way out of our price range. If I had a spare few hundred thousand lying around, it’d be my first pick. Unfortunately that’s not the case. :(

Chevrolet Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon -These seem huge. Roughly 70 cm (2+ feet) longer than a Honda Odyssey. The way they look is starting to grow on me, but man, it seems like it’d be driving a tank. Not sure how much Mrs. BaconSandwich would like that. In theory, I imagine that being a domestic, replacement parts would be cheaper. Not sure if that is really the case, though.

GMC Acadia -Similar in length to a minivan, but no sliding doors. Some of my relatives have one, but I haven’t been able to ask them about it. A lot of it would depend on if the middle row comes with two or three seats (two being better - easier access to the rear without having to remove car seats).

What other ones am I missing? Are my opinions way off the mark? How do you Opponauts haul your offspring around? I’m all ears.

Replies (20)

"Alfalfa" (alfalfa-romeo)
09/20/2017 at 00:12, STARS: 1

I certainly don’t have anything to add, other than my personal preference. If it were something primarily driven by my wife I’d get the Sienna or Odyssey. For me personally, I like the funkiness of the Flex. I don’t see myself offroading or towing enough to drop so much extra coin on a three row SUV.

"Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition" (realasabass)
09/20/2017 at 00:23, STARS: 0

I have experience with three of these.

1. Dodge Caravan - I have a 2014 as work vehicle and mine does not have rear seats. I can give you a drivetrain/chassis review. Let’s just say I would stay far away. Had to replace front and rear brakes by 40k miles. Developed alignment issues that could not be corrected with factory adjustments, it required a camber kit. The transmission is a mess and is far from smooth and doesn’t ever know what gear to be in. 18-20 MPG’s

2. Ford Transit Connect - I had one as a work vehicle, so no seats, and I loved it. I find myself dreaming of buying one with seats. You can swap out panels for windows and vice versa pretty easily. I would test drive one if you could. MPG’s around 30

3. Tahoe/Suburban - Good drivetrains, very comfortable. They can be expensive if not maintained, they are however very easy to work on. Getting to the third row is not too bad, but it’s no place for anyone with real legs. They are also truck based so they can tow pretty much anything. 14-16 MPG

"Boss2452stolemylunchmoney" (boss2452stolemylunchmoney)
09/20/2017 at 00:27, STARS: 3

I have a 2013 Town and Country. It’s fucking gold...sorry, Champagne, whatever, it’s fucking gold. The interior is tan. We wanted that color called...Anything-but-fucking-gold, but it was at least $3k more and had 4 times the miles on it. Gold it is.

It’s the Touring Model (one step from the base). I picked it up 2 years old with under 5000 miles for $21k. It has leather-ish seats, a DVD player with a single TV screen in the back with all the good multimedia hook-ups (supposedly it even works...I haven’t actually tried it). It has UConnect, which mostly works. It has a steering wheel, 7 seats, 4 tires; 5 doors, 3 of which open electrically. It’s a van, it does van things well.

My wife drives it mostly around town and it averages around 21 MPG for it’s life. I drove it on a 13 hour road trip and returned 29 MPG with a car full of shit and my dog (he loved the space in the back, but would have preferred my lap). We beat the shit out of it. I’ve hauled plywood, drywall, and a host of other shit. We use the holy living hell out of the Stow-n-Go seat feature. It’s truly excellent when it comes to extricating your infant/toddler from one of the center row seats. Even the back seat wouldn’t be too bad because the rear seat is 60/40 split, so you can stow one seat into the floor and then access the remaining seat from the rear.

The Town and Country (and presumably the Caravan too) has one trick that the Pacifica (minivan) does not. The rear 60/40 seat can be flipped over and you can sit your butt on the back rest with your feet dangling out the back with the tailgate open. We used that last year for Halloween and passed candy out from the back of the van...it was more comfortable than our shitty lawn chairs.

The bad. I had to replace the ABS module at 30k miles. Chrylser covered it under good will (aged out of warranty) and I covered the labor. ABS and TCS were non-functional and the engine died when I did a brake test to see if ABS was functional...not ideal. I’m getting ready to order a new cruise control steering wheel switch assembly because it requires unusual tenacity to engage traction control. My 2002 Chrysler 300 had Lucas Electronics stuff in it...hopefully FCA is not still using that shit.

Despite those bad things, we still love our ugly-AF car and absolutely would do it again. (seriously...fucking gold).

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
09/20/2017 at 00:30, STARS: 1

About two years after our first child we found out we were having twins. I didn’t want a van, and I didn’t want an SUV. So I went looking for vehicles that would fit our needs. Then I started thinking about three kids shoulder-to-shoulder in the back seat on a 15-hour ride and that mini van started looking pretty good.

I can’t speak towards current models, but we have a 2003 Odyssey and I love it. Having the big sliding doors made it easy to get the twins into their car seats, and easy for the kids to pile in when they were bigger. On long trips, we take one of the middle seats out and have lots of extra room inside for a cooler and other things.

When it comes time to replace it, I’m not sure I’m staying with Honda. I drove a 2017 and didn’t like it at all, but then again I am used to the older, simpler Oddy. I might look at Toyota, but other than that, this might be the last mini van we own. My boys will all by moved out in 7 years. d

"ToyotaFamily" (robbav35)
09/20/2017 at 00:36, STARS: 0

Based on personal opinion, experience, and what I’ve learned from others, the Sienna might be the best choice here.

The Mopar twins have some long-term reliability issues, and finding certain parts for the Routan might be tricky.

The Acadia has some issues with oil leaks. I’ve heard the differentials are prone to go bad on the Ford Flex.

You’ve hit the nail on the head with most of the other cars though.

"boxrocket" (boxrocket)
09/20/2017 at 01:18, STARS: 4

The acadia/traverse/outlook/enclave are shit. Do yourself a favor and avoid.

The Caravan/T&C is a good workhorse, but make sure to have it thoroughly checked-out. Take special care to listen for valve noise on the passenger-side cylinders - if it’s noisy, the engine is FUBAR. Forget the Routan exists. IIRC they don’t offer Stow ‘n’ Go or one of the other critical features of having one of the Caravan family.

The Pacifica (minivan, not the shitbox crossover) is pretty decent, but might be hard to find one in your price range.

Avoid the Journey: It’s an Avenger wagon, and while it has some neat features - I especially like the storage bin inside the front passenger seat cushion - skip it in favor of the Caravan. If you must have a Dodge SUV, get a Durango: The 3.6L Pentastar V6 is decently powerful and OK on gas, and is in almost everything Chrysler Co. put out over the last few years. Just don’t look at how the center stack isn’t lined up with the center console, it will drive you nuts.

Mazda5 is a tall Mazda3, so could be cramped. However with just 5 passengers I think you can split-fold the rear seat for extra cargo toom. Consider the CX-9 instead? Also don’t forget about the MPV minivan, it was one of the last “just-right size” minivans before Honda and Toyota started seeking their sumo wrestling size for their minivans.

The Flex is a great vehicle. My chief complaint is that the fuel door is on the wrong side of the vehicle, which sucks in winter, or if the driver isn’t paying attention and drives off with the pump handle still in the filler neck. The Explorer is the taller version of the Flex.

The Transit Connect (gen 1) is a similar length to the Mazda5. The 2nd gen has 2 wheelbases to choose from, and as it’s based on the Focus platform, I believe the short wheelbase (SWB) is again similar to the 5's, but the LWB is closer to what yhey call “mini”vans now. Like the Flex, Explorer, and 5, the fuel door is on the wrong side of the vehicle. Don’t forget about the Transit itself: Fleet-owned passenger versions are damn cheap, and worthwhile to get over a comparable Econoline/E-series.

You forgot the Volvo XC90. Never forget the XC90. It’s actually the platform base for the Flex and Explorer, and it’s stupendously safe. Again, gas door on wrong side.

Consider a Navigator or Expedition over the Tahukolade trio. Lower liftover height for the cargo area, and fewer changes between model years, which keeps repair prices low and parts availability high. They also don’t suffer from the weird roof vibration that some of the GM triplets did.

Highlander Hybrid is OK, but check towing specs first. To me they feel too bloated for the platform, but so does the Sienna.

Sedonas are criminally underrated. They’re my go-to rental minivan. Plus they have the longest warranty of anything you’ve yet named.

Sequoias are probably out of budget, but compare decently with the Expedition/Navigator. Ignore the presence of the Nissan Armada and Infiniti QX56/80. Also ignore the 2013+ Pathfinder/JX35/QX60. Actually, continue to ignore Nissan in general, unless you’re considering a 2012 or older Pathfinder, but even then there’s certainly better values out there.

The Odyssey - and Pilot/MDX - are very hit-or-miss. Again, I’d favor the Sienna (especially the AWD option, if that’s important), Sedona and LWB Transit Connect here, just to avoid any possible “glass” transmission issues. Plus the ergonomics aren’t as good as the others’ anyway.

That’s all I can think of right now.

"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/20/2017 at 03:22, STARS: 1

I think you kinda nailed it. A friend of ours has a Flex for family duty. It is surprisingly roomy and she loves it. For what that’s worth.

"Jay, the practical enthusiast" (jay-m)
09/20/2017 at 05:04, STARS: 2

I’m a Mazda5 owner. I wouldn’t recommend it for 3 car seats. You would have to go in through the tailgate to access the car seat in the 3rd row. The interior is compact car sized and much smaller than any other minivan with almost no storage space when the 3rd row is used.

"Stapleface" (patrickgruden)
09/20/2017 at 07:04, STARS: 0

The best thing the Chrysler vans have going for them is Stow-n-Go. Very handy, but if you don’t need an empty van all that much, it might just not be worth it.

Is it not a possibility to fit three car seats across in a back seat? I don’t know, hence why I asked. If it is possible, some two row vehicles would greatly increase your options.

Obviously not the same, but my sister had an 02 Sedona that lasted about ten years before she traded it in for a smaller vehicle when the kids were grown.

One more you might add to the list is the Hyundai Entourage, but it’s basically the same as the Sedona anyway. Nissan Quest is another that I didn’t see on your list. Although I do believe they’re saddled with Nissan’s lousy CVT.

If you can find it, the Subaru Tribeca was also a 7 passenger vehicle.

Also, full size vans. I know Nissan makes the NV in 8 passenger variety I believe. Not sure when the E-Series and Express/Savanah stopped coming in non church-van capacity.

"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
09/20/2017 at 07:32, STARS: 1

I’ve worked on a handful of T&Cs that had over 200k miles on them, and they still run strong. The suspension and cooling systems are weak points, but the radiators and hoses are relatively inexpensive to replace. I’ve had to replace sway bar bushings on two vans with a clunking in the front end, and one had already had struts replaced before the 200k mile mark. The 3.8 is a good powertrian. The trans seems to be okay as well.

We bought a new Pacifica when they were first realeased and love it. We were between the odyssey and the Pacifica. The Pacifica was new new, so no used examples out there. And tr odysseys held their resale so well, that it wasn’t worth buying used for us, so we would’ve bought new as well. I would think the Pacificas resale is so poor that they get to be a decent price pretty quickly, but sounds like you’ve been checking already. It is truely a nice vehicle to drive, and better overall than the last gen T&C, but I wouldn’t be scared off of a higher mileage T&C IMO. They are relatively easy to work on, except for those stupid sway bar bushings, everything is simple to remove and replace.  

We do three in car seats as well, and have the three boys in the second row and we’ve loaded our Pacifica more times than not, up with 8 passengers and their gear. The minivan is truely the best solution to haul kids and stuff around, hands down.

"Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing." (granfury)
09/20/2017 at 08:39, STARS: 3

As the owner of a 2012 6MT Sport model, I can confirm your assessment. I haven’t needed the third row in nearly four years and I can’t imagine having to use it on a daily basis and carry stuff at the same time - it’s not really possible. It’s nice to know it’s there for the rare occasion I need it, but I wouldn’t buy one of these vehicles if I needed a third row regularly. Even when I did use it I’d have to leave the retractable cargo cover behind, something that can be an issue. It’s a fantastic 4 seater with lots of cargo room and occasional 6-seater, but it’s no Odyssey, for better or worse.

"TheRealBicycleBuck" (therealbicyclebuck)
09/20/2017 at 09:32, STARS: 0

We have an Explorer. The interior is almost the same as the Flex. I really preferred the Flex, but it not being my daily, it wasn’t my decision.

Access to the third row in the Explorer is a pain with a bench seat even without a car seat strapped into it. The middle row tumbles forward, but leaves little room to squeeze by. It sucks.

That being said, the Flex with the captains chairs is pretty fantastic. But it can get better.

We’ve rented a couple of minivans with stow-and-go. That’s the bomb. Drop one of the middle row seats into the floor and leave it there. Then you have wide-open access to the third row.

However, if we had to do it again, I’d push for an Odyssey with the sliding seats.

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"BaconSandwich is tasty." (baconsandwich)
09/20/2017 at 11:29, STARS: 0

Interesting. Is that only available on the 2018 Odyssey or is it on anything older?

"BaconSandwich is tasty." (baconsandwich)
09/20/2017 at 11:30, STARS: 1

You guys are awesome. This is the kind of information that makes Oppo awesome.

"TheRealBicycleBuck" (therealbicyclebuck)
09/20/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 1

It looks like they introduced it in 2016.

"V8, RWD and pedal to the floor!" (kretara)
09/20/2017 at 12:22, STARS: 1

I was looking forward to many minutes of writing on this subject.

Then I read the above post and all I could do was say, read what boxrocket said.

To expound on the GM products.

The Acadia/Traverse/Outlook/Enclave clones are pure crap. My wife was smitten by a 2015 Enclave. After 2 years and 28,000 miles, I wish this car would die in a fire. Reliable (as any 2 year old vehicle should be), but nothing about the car stands out as quality.

Grand Caravans are great vehicles. Watch out for the 2004-2007 with the 3.8 V6. Some of these engines had incorrect size oil rings installed at the factory. These caused cylinder scoring and high oil consumption. Our 2007 had this issue and was using 2 quarts per thousand miles. Chrysler said that was within the normal range. The 3.0 (or maybe it was a 3.3) did not have this issue. Despite the oil consumption issue, we loved the van and found that it was perfect for our family (2 kids).

Our friends with Odyssey/Pilot/MDX (all generations) cars all had numerous issues with the braking system, sliding door issues and transmission issues.

"Transit" (gear-chip)
09/20/2017 at 12:32, STARS: 2

Odyssey -my cousins have one and they love it. Honda does a good minivan

Town & Country - a close friend has a late model one with no end of electrical gremlins. The thing is back at the dealer monthly under warranty. Their kids have been locked inside on several occasions because the power locks will just randomly cycle on. Avoid.

Pacifica - just heard this morning that they’re recalling and recommending that you not use the 2nd row because the seat belts may become disconnected during “sporty driving.” Maybe wait a few years until they have the bugs worked out.

Flex -neighbor had one for years and thought it was great. They hauled their two kids around, plus some of my kids. Back folds down easily to haul stuff. The third row is probably better for older kids that can climb back there unassisted.

"SaabStutz" (stutz)
09/20/2017 at 13:49, STARS: 1

While older Odysseys won’t slide, in our 2005 (3rd Gen) you could set the seats up with the 2 captains chairs closer to one side so that you could reach into the third row easily. We never used it because as kids we were old enough to get into the car ourselves and preffered the more sideways room of a captain’s chair set up, but some family friends who had Odysseys did set it up that way.

Also, that car made it to 205000 before we sold it, and it was in pretty good shape. We even accidentally starved it of oil once (I told my dad he shouldn’t overrun the oil change time light) but once an oil change happened it was happy again. Held up incredibly well to drives to South Carolina, Colorado, Maine, and countless commute miles. And that’s from Indiana.

" The Compromiser" (charger)
09/20/2017 at 20:59, STARS: 0

I was in the middle row of a pacifica. The 90s are still trucking in that thing. No thanks. Dash looked great though!

We bought a Durango. I like it. Lots of room, comfy, drove it 21 hours straight with three kids in it. Not much to say bad. FCA built so you know what to expect.Jeep Grand Cherokee is built on the same platform, just shorter, so it carries some of the styling fromantic that if you look closely enough.

"Boss2452stolemylunchmoney" (boss2452stolemylunchmoney)
09/25/2017 at 15:09, STARS: 0

We use our Stow-n-go seats all. the. time. We’re always flipping them up and putting them back away depending on what we want to do with the van any given day. Love it. There is no way MagicSlide can beat it.