by "shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
Published 09/12/2017 at 16:40
by "shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
Published 09/12/2017 at 16:40
Tags: I remember when this was all farm!
STARS: 19
I’m going to speak in the broadest of terms here. Enough of you know my real name as it is, and I don’t want to paint too specific of a picture here. Besides, my frustrations have nothing to do with the specifics of what prompted me to finally write this anyways.
It has become de rigueur in education to assume that every time a student does anything that they are not supposed to do, that the root cause of the infraction is that they did not understand what they were supposed to do. That they did not know how they were expected to behave . That flawed assumption leads those who are supposed to be the adults, to be the leaders, to descend into a constant feedback loop of “reteaching our expectations.”
Kids crave structure and leadership. As much as they fight it (we all did to one extent or another), they need it. Instead these days kids get soaked in a super-saccharine environment full of “adults” using their best sing-songy voices to say things like, “Now kids, you should be at a voice level zero,” Instead of a simple, “Hey, be quiet.”
It is ludicrous to assume that a group of 13 year olds honestly do not know how they should behave in the cafeteria. More importantly though, it is wildly insulting to the intelligence of those students. I try to put myself in their shoes, as for the umpteenth time I have to sit through a “reteaching of expectations” to my whole grade level, simply because no control was exerted upon those who choose to behave badly in a vacuum of leadership and consequences. I think I would lose my freaking mind.
Current educational theory says that you can only speak in positives. You can only promote the good, and never admonish the bad. That’s a crock, both are needed. The adults need to develop their sense of judgement to learn when to use which methods.
I see parents do it as well. I watch with astonishment as my sister tells her three-year old in that same saccharine sing-songy tone for the nine-millionth time that she will not allow him to kick her while she changes his diaper, because that really hurts Mommy. He in response just laughs and kicks her some more, because the only consequence ever doled out is a two-minute “time-in.” Apparently a time-in means you take the kid to their room and explain why they shouldn’t do whatever they’re doing, and then the kid goes back to playing/doing the exact same thing. I can’t for the life of me figure out how rewarding a kid with more attention for bad behavior, is supposed to alleviate that bad behavior. This kind of parenting is why my nephew, quite frankly, is a butt-head who eats brownie bars for breakfast (but they’re organic, so they’re healthy.)
Please don’t take this as Grandpa Shop-Teacher complains about these damn kids these days. No, no, no. This is on the adults. The adults are fully responsible for this hot mess. On any given day, if you were to ask me how things are going at school, you’re likely to hear some version of, “The kids are great. The adults, well that’s another story.”
I’m not saying we need to go back to the days of beating kids either. I’ve never spanked my kids, and I’m not going to either. A good friend of mine and I debated this recently. He feels it’s a tool to have in the tool box. I say it’s a rusty bent pocket knife that can be thrown in the scrap pile. My mom did spank me some as a kid, my dad never raised his hand to me once. Guess which parent I was most scared of? My dad. That man could stop me in my tracks with just one look.
Instead what I am calling for, is for the adults to exert some control and exhibit some leadership. Positivity is great, is right, when the situation calls for it. No one tool is right for all tasks. Adults, use all the tools. Be a leader. Be the boss. Our kids need us to be in control. That’s what makes them kids.
Clean Mazda 6 wagon for your time.
"G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3" (gbodyman)
09/12/2017 at 16:50, STARS: 1
Not to mention that new-age parenting has a horrible impact on kids when they hit the real world.
"Phyrxes once again has a wagon!" (phyrxes)
09/12/2017 at 16:51, STARS: 5
Where do I sign up for your newsletter? There is a reason that you also hear “Teachers don’t quit schools they quit administrators.”
Edit: Curse you autocorrect....
"Klaus Schmoll" (klausschmoll)
09/12/2017 at 16:57, STARS: 3
Preach to the choir!!!
It’s never the student’s fault, you just didn’t adapt your teaching style to cater to their individual needs while 25 others need to be individually tended to as well.
Yeah, well.... uhm....
I’m slowly adopting the “be a drill sergeant the first few weeks to get a relaxed classroom for the rest of the year” style.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
09/12/2017 at 17:02, STARS: 3
Ugh! Thanks for sharing - this right here is what I dread most about my son getting older and starting school. I don’t have the school experiences, but my outlook on parenting (as well as my wife’s) is pretty similar. Our job is to prepare him for life- and sugar coating every damn thing and telling him he’s never wrong doesn’t do that. At all.
I can’t imagine being a teacher these days and being surrounded with those attitudes- more power to you for living with it every day!
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
09/12/2017 at 17:04, STARS: 2
My kids spend a lot of time at grandma and grandpas and what I see there drives me nuts. My 4 year old knows when she does wrong, and she knows that crying get her snuggles. Its become such a pattern that she fake cries just for the snuggles and if she sees me coming to comfort her she stops crying because Im just going to ask her why she’s crying instead of picking her up and giving her attention. Drives me crazy.
I don’t claim to have any good answers for this problem but I’ve always gone back to this principle in my mind if I need to:
1. tell them the rule
2. Explain the consiquence
3. explain that its their choice
If there is then rule breaking FOLLOW THROUGH on the consequence (super important).
The next bit is key though, after its all over, take extra effort to reconfirm that that their behavior and consequence of rule doesn’t affect your love for them and that rules and choice exist to teach us. After the punishment is the time for comfort.
Thats my 2 cents and its working out so far.
"Mercedes Streeter" (smart)
09/12/2017 at 17:08, STARS: 4
I imagine Parenting to be pretty hard. You want your kids to be great human beings, though you’re afraid of making the same mistakes of your own parents (which could be minor to huge things). At the same time, you have your own visions of right and wrong.
Coddle them too much, and they may not be prepped for the real world. Let them do their own thing too much, and they may ruin their lives (or worse). Be too stern, and you could end up being manipulative/abusive.
My verdict, I’m happy that I don’t have the ability nor desire to have children.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
09/12/2017 at 17:09, STARS: 4
Me: Oh I see you got your cavities removed and have some new fillings.
My wife: they are shiny stars! They are not cavities, cavities are bad.
Me: GTFAC
I struggle with this as well. I know myself well enough and I deal with absolutes much better than grey areas and assume that my children do too. My wife likes to use sideways suggestions, which I think is a result of her passive aggressive parents. She gets frustrated when the kids don’t do what they are told in a timely manner, and I’m like well you said to them “you should probably think about going to bed now..” not: “It’s 8 therefore it’s time for your to go to be right now”.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:11, STARS: 0
Abso-freaking-lutely!
"Logansteno: Bought a VW?" (logansteno)
09/12/2017 at 17:11, STARS: 1
I’ve noticed this sort of behavior between my aunt and my 6-7 year old cousin (among other people/stranger and their kids.) There’s *no* discipline whatsoever.
On Mother’s Day he (cousin) kept spraying people with a water gun. Instead of taking the gun away or putting him in time out or anything, it was nothing more than a firm, but never raised voice “no, bad *name*” about once every 3 times someone got sprayed. Finally, I, the 19 year old cousin, had to take the gun away to much a screaming fit. He never sprayed anyone again once he got it back a little later though, shocking what consequences can do.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:11, STARS: 0
I hadn’t heard that, but it’s definitely true.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
09/12/2017 at 17:13, STARS: 0
three-year old
...
I can’t for the life of me figure out how rewarding a kid
with more attention for bad behavior, is supposed to alleviate that bad
behavior.
Young kids can be impossible, no matter what your method. Explaining to them isn’t always understood, yelling “No!” doesn’t tell them what not to do, and physical punishments can leave psychological scars. Perhaps for their kid, they don’t see the extra attention as a reward.
But don’t worry too much about how kids are behaving these days, they’ll eventually figure it out when they get to the real world, and in the mean time, they’re giving their parents as much grief as they give you.
Personally, I’m trying to get my older kid (5 year old) to start remembering the rules and what’s asked of him without needing us to repeat it every 5 minutes. That’s more for our sanity than out of concern for future teachers though.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:13, STARS: 1
You can provide the gravity your son needs at home. The kids are by in large pretty great for me, because they crave structureand understand that it comes from a place of care and purpose.
"duurtlang" (duurtlang)
09/12/2017 at 17:16, STARS: 2
Break their will and have their respect forever.
I did it with bullies when I was 14, but differently. #1 got a bloody nose, resulting in not even a peep from #2 and 3 for the next year. Problem solved. Something you might have to do with pure authority and certainly no physicality as a teacher.
"CB" (jrcb)
09/12/2017 at 17:27, STARS: 1
Happened to my mum. She loved her school, but they got new admin who had no backbone. Lo and behold, the kids took charge of the school, teachers got sent home repeatedly on baseless accusations, and the admin didn’t support them. So my mum bailed, along with a bunch of other teachers.
"cbell04" (cbell04)
09/12/2017 at 17:33, STARS: 3
Preach!!!! We have 2, an 8 and 6 year old. Wife is always amazed at other kids bad behavior I’m always just staring down the person who should be correcting the behavior but instead hear that all familiar sing song now now now maybe I can just redirect your misguided energy towards something good rather than squashing the bad behavior with a touch of authority. Honestly might pull my kid from cub scouts because the kids won’t listen even when their parents are “watching” (read staring at phone) nevermind once the parents are gone. We are supposed to give these kids knifes in 3 weeks (whittling chip) and they can’t even sit in a circle and listen to an adult without spazing out 50 times for a 5 minute talk. It was not this bad when i was a kid we got out of hand but when an adult said knock it off you knocked it off.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:34, STARS: 0
I agree with all of that. I can only control how I teach and how I parent. I don’t abide by the stuff I complained about. I’m happy overall with both my kids and my students.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
09/12/2017 at 17:38, STARS: 3
I do the exact same thing. I’m the only one that really follows through, and because of that I get listened to vs. everyone else. I’m not a monster at all about it, but if I say “stop doing x or else y” it’s pretty set in stone. Doesn’t change how much I care, just showing that consequences exist.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
09/12/2017 at 17:41, STARS: 1
Very true, and we’ll do that. What I fear are the parents of his classmates...
"The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock" (jukesjukesjukes)
09/12/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 1
I often train lots of highschool age kids at work. The first week or so training them, I a relentless hard ass who will drive you into the ground. I’ll either make you great employee, or they walk after a few weeks. After that I let back some, & take it easier. They chose to work in a tough in unforgiving industry, they are getting all of it in the form a brick wall wether they like it or not.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 0
Yep! Front-load the work. Establish control, and life is sooooo much easier in the class. Ironically, the cause of these problems is their refusal to adapt to different situations. No no, every single situation must be handled with saccharine positively and platitudes.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:45, STARS: 0
It’s very doable.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
09/12/2017 at 17:46, STARS: 3
Please don’t take this as Grandpa Shop-Teacher complains about these damn kids these days. No, no, no. This is on the adults. The adults are fully responsible for this hot mess.
Absolutely. This is why I take issue with old timers who gripe about “everybody gets a trophy kids”
Hey dickhole, your generation is the one that created that mentality. A 5 year old kid is not throwing hands at a kiddie art show because his finger painting was put towards the back.
A lack of follow through and parents trying to be their kid’s friends first and parents second are to blame in my opinion.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:48, STARS: 0
Funny how that last part works, ain’t it?
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:50, STARS: 0
It is hard, and sometimes scary. It’s also very rewarding and I love it. It’s definitely not for everyone though.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 17:59, STARS: 0
I have a 2-year old and a nearly 5-year, so I know the drill. Believe me, that’s just one of a bazillion examples. They exert no control. There’s a lot of parenting tools besides the nothing they do, and yelling or physical punishment.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:00, STARS: 2
Exactly!
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
09/12/2017 at 18:05, STARS: 1
It’s not that kids, or adults, don’t know what they’re supposed to do. It’s the inability (or disregard) to follow simple instructions. I remember basic training, that’s what gets drilled into you...learn to follow simple instructions, and you’re good. If you can’t follow simple instructions, well, you’re in for a world of correction, and it’s not the saccharine happy kind.
My son is in 2nd grade. He’s a strict rule follower and needs structure. It’s the same for his hockey. In fact, it causes him a bit of anxiety when others are not following the rules. At home, of course, he pushes the limits. Currently, he’s lost any form of technology for the month because of a little outburst last week. Thankfully, once the punishment is doled out, he knows it, and accepts it. I won’t say he’s happy about it, but after the initial griping, it’s not discussed any further.
It is funny...his friends will come over and try and get him to ask if they can all have snacks/candy, usually right before dinner time. I always overhear “don’t ask your dad, though, he always says no.” I’ve got a deep voice so I can sound intimidating to the uninitiated.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:06, STARS: 1
That really chaps my ass when people’s kids are screwing up other people’s day, and still they do what amounts to nothing. Taking the gun to as a great example of exerting control. He lost his toy, he knew why, he got it back after a while, problem solved.
"vondon302" (vondon302)
09/12/2017 at 18:08, STARS: 1
I don’t know how you teachers do it. My wife is a 9th grade English and history teacher and I would of quit years ago with all the stuff she’s put up with. Thank goodness there are individuals like you and my wife that fight the good fight every day. Cheers mate!
Btw expect a reply from from Mrs Vondon302 aka Mustang Sally. We just had a conversation about this.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:08, STARS: 0
Well put!
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:09, STARS: 1
They will simultaneously hate you and be insanely jealous of you. Eff them.
"Sovande" (sovande)
09/12/2017 at 18:12, STARS: 0
Do you have kids?
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
09/12/2017 at 18:13, STARS: 1
I’m perfectly fine with both of those things- - it’s the fact that it’ll just add more challenge to raising my kid that annoys me. :)
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:19, STARS: 0
My oldest (almost 5) is getting a lot better about accepting the consequences of her actions. It makes things so much easier!
The adults are shirking their responsibility, and not leading the kids. The kids “can’t” follow instructions, because they’ve never been trained.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:21, STARS: 1
Hehe, whenever people throw summers off in my face, my response is, “You wouldn’t last a week in my job.” Which is stretching the truth, but this is definitely not a gig for everyone.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:22, STARS: 0
Yes. A 2-year old and another who is almost 5.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 18:22, STARS: 1
Right there with you!
"That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms" (thatbastardkurtis5)
09/12/2017 at 18:27, STARS: 1
My dad never beat my ass, but I always thought he would. I don’t think the actual hitting of a kid accomplishes anything, but they have to at least worry about consequences of their actions, which is something kids today lack.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
09/12/2017 at 18:28, STARS: 1
I think my dad had “reteaching of expectations” branded on his belt.
"Sovande" (sovande)
09/12/2017 at 18:29, STARS: 1
Good. I was hoping you weren’t arm chair parenting.
It’s hard. There is a balance that my parents seldom achieved. Yelling works until it doesn’t. Rewards work until they don’t. Throwing your hands up isn’t always a good technique. Ignoring them can be tough. And there ar laws against locking them in the basement. I choose to not care or comment on how others raise their kids since it’s not my business. Plus I am trying to figure out how to be the best parent to mine and it’s a full time job.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
09/12/2017 at 18:35, STARS: 0
I completely agree. I have a niece and nephew that have zero consequences of any poor choice or bad behavior. It’s been like that since they were itty bitties. Now they’re 17 and 19. Daddy will always bail them out.
"vondon302" (vondon302)
09/12/2017 at 19:00, STARS: 1
Ha truth.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 19:19, STARS: 0
Agreed. This can be done without hitting them. Consequences are critical though.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 19:20, STARS: 1
Ha! My dad could do it all with his eyes.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 19:22, STARS: 0
Yes. Nothing works universally, and it is indeed a constant balancing act. One that is impossible to get right all the time. That’s why we need all the tools in that toolbox.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 19:24, STARS: 0
So short-sighted. There will come a time when daddy can’t do that, and then they’ll be flapping in the breeze. Why can’t they see that?
"jariten1781" (jariten1781)
09/12/2017 at 19:38, STARS: 0
“It has become de rigueur in education to assume that every time a student does anything that they are not supposed to do, that the root cause of the infraction is that they did not understand what they were supposed to do.”
It’s not just education, in my experience this has been a growing trend in all the large organizations I’ve worked in over about the last 20 or so years; that includes government, military, and major corporations. It’s no longer acceptable to say the root cause of John turning a valve the wrong direction spewing fluid everywhere is “John’s a screwup and needs to be canned”. Now the root cause is almost always ‘systemic’ and the corrective action is ‘training’. It seems to come with a greater and greater reliance on top-down planning and control. Across all of those domains I’ve seen line and group level supervisors have their authority, accountability and responsibility absorbed by corporate/government policies. Workers/sailors/soldiers are not individuals with flaws (that can be unacceptable or acceptable; fixable or unfixable) but are instead ‘equivalent persons’ that should, if processes and procedures are robust enough, be able to operate perfectly with no defects. If they’re not, hold a critique, find out the root cause of the defect was that the procedure was not explained well enough, then hold training. Repeat ad-nauseam.
Just seems to be where culture is for the time-being...I imagine the pendulum will swing back the other way at some point.
(Side Note: Places I’ve worked with < ~200 employees that have no more than three reporting steps from the lowest on the totem pole to the highest in authority do not seem to have these issues...though they have many others)
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 19:41, STARS: 0
Well now, that’s depressing! I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Hopefully the pendulum starts swinging back soon.
"fryguy" (jbird94)
09/12/2017 at 22:40, STARS: 0
As one who met you in the hallowed halls - you speak volumes here. You should hear what the assistants say about the state of education.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
09/12/2017 at 23:57, STARS: 0
There are some who won’t stop telling me ;)
(No, I don’t mean you)
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
09/13/2017 at 14:26, STARS: 0
One of the first things I was taught after having kids was that other parents rarely know what they’re doing, especially the ones who give advice about how to parent your kids better. (One of my friend’s wives told my wife to avoid tomatoes during breastfeading because kids hate tomatoes.)
At least I have the freedom to avoid wild kids and the adults who let them be wild.