by "Die-Trying" (die-trying)
Published 09/07/2017 at 15:38
by "Die-Trying" (die-trying)
Published 09/07/2017 at 15:38
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STARS: 2
i know that you work in a body shop, and i recall you having said that you were a guy who was a hard hit specialist. i was hoping you might be able to give me some advice on where to shove in order to get things usably squared up.
the frame is toast. thats no problem. i am just going to set in on a shortbed 79 frame. THE problem, is that the cab is sprung. the door wont shut on the driver side, and i havent opened the passenger side, as i can tell that it is in a hard bind.
the gas tank in the back(50 gallon motor home fuel tank) was full, so when the truck suddenly stopped, the front wall of the bed flexed, and it punched the back of the cab inwards with a good bit of force..
should i shove against the back of the cab(that got hit) to get it squared up as much as possible first, or should i shove against the door frame first?(using measurements from a straight not sprung cab).
the floor also got distorted when the front wheel pushed a large bump up into the floor, and distorted the trans cover. also shoving the firewall back a slight bit.
should i leave the cab on the frame while i am working it back straight, or should i free it up from the frame before i begin work on it?
i KNOW that smart money says to just walk away and start with a fresh straight cab. but this truck has some sentimental value to me, and i would like to put as much of this one back functional again. i am not too worried about dents left over showing, just getting it straight enough that the doors work, and it will bolt up to another frame. i dont mind spending time on it. i plan to be using a harbour freight hydraulic cylinder, one of those ones from a cherry picker, and making nice large flat steel feet to give a solid flat shove without punching through....
thanks......
"Sweet Trav" (thespunbearing)
09/07/2017 at 15:43, STARS: 1
That looks like a project I’d run from brother.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
09/07/2017 at 15:53, STARS: 1
a smart, normal, sane rational person would....... this truck just happens to be an old friend, and i am not ready to let go just yet.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
“ those who can, do”........
"Sweet Trav" (thespunbearing)
09/07/2017 at 15:55, STARS: 3
Yeah, emotional attachment to cars is a bitch sometimes.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
09/07/2017 at 16:00, STARS: 1
The old book “Key to Metal Bumping” says to always reverse the order of trauma on something like this. In other words, I think the door posts having happened last will have to get unwarped first, but with force similar to the reverse of how they got tweaked. In other words, on the back of the cab *and* the post at once, because as long as the back of the cab is pushed...
That may not be possible until you pop it off the frame, and since you probably can’t pull the frame even straight enough to draw the cab out and down, that should probably be first. Then, a jack with a block against the back of the cab, and then pressure with maybe a hi-lift to the door opening with another until the overall warp “unlocks”. Maybe.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
09/07/2017 at 16:18, STARS: 0
yeah, that is where i am mulling things over at...... the order..... i can always break out the torch, and cut everything free. but i dont want to, if its going to be counter productive. i have an old autocrane, so lifting the cab free isnt an issue. like i have said, i am planning to use a cherry picker cylinder to press the rear cab wall back , and a good high lift jack wont be hard to lay my hands on. for shoving on the door frame......
good advice. thank you.......
"Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever" (rustanddust)
09/07/2017 at 16:27, STARS: 4
Jesus wept, that thing is
hurt
. Hope you were OK, that steering wheel looks like it left a hell of a bruise, if not more.
The frame looks like it’s probably holding the cab in a twist right now, which makes squaring the cab up nearly impossible. Even if the frame rails are straight underneath the cab, they’re going to be in a twist with the left front suspension not really being where it should.
I’d try to get a jackstand/block of wood/stump under the left frame rail toward the front of the cab, just to get “ride height” somewhat level first, and see if that doesn’t do some unbinding for you. Getting the rails as close to the same elevation from ground level may paint a clearer picture. If the cab mount crossmembers are rusted/collapsed, or the cab mount bushings are shot, that’ll also make your job more difficult (I’ve seen these things screw with door openings on a truck that hadn’t been compressed like that).
Unfortunately, you’ll almost need a frame machine to correct that cab. As dumb as it sounds, if I were fixing that, I’d pull the frame back to square (even though I was replacing it) before working on the cab. Squaring the frame will ensure your cab’s “foundation” is right. You don’t want to square the door openings, to later find the left front section of the cab needs to move forward and down, and that throws your doors back off. Given you probably don’t have a frame bench laying around, trying to get it mounted to the donor frame may be a decent start.
With the cab mounted to a straight frame, ensuring floor/rockers/cab crossmembers are straight, multiple plates welded to each cab corner (remove the in cab tank first) to distribute the pull force on a wider area. You want to try to apply the same force that caused the damage, just reversed. The bed slammed into the outer portion of the cab, any pushing you do from the inside may just collapse the already weakened structure, or stretch/push the front that you’re bracing off of forward out of position. I’d pull the back glass too(how the hell did that not break?!), it’s honestly pretty close to coming out at the bottom right now, and cab movement may shatter or dislodge it.
If a hydraulic ram is the only option, scrap 2"x4" can be useful as well. The wood will do the same thing you’ve got in mind for the flat stock steel feet, but wood will “compress” a bit, giving you some extra wiggle room without distorting your bracing area. Even a come-along pulling plates from the outside in conjunction with a port-a-power (hydraulic ram) will help promote the cab returning to shape, almost replicating a frame machine. That secondary force may help reduce the pushing required from the port-a-power, also reducing the chances of collapsing/distorting structural points.
I’ve fixed plenty of stuff where sentimental value outweighed cost effectiveness (if I could get my hands on my Grandpa’s rust-rotten ‘74 Chevy I’d be doing it again), so I completely understand where you’re coming from. That’s gonna be a tough one to fix, honestly. There was a hell of a lot of force involved in the initial impact to the left front, and the 300lbs of fuel pounding the back of the cab makes for two substantial, but opposing, forces on the cab.
Don’t hesitate to reply to this post with any other questions, or if something I said didn’t make sense (got distracted a couple times with work).
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
09/07/2017 at 17:15, STARS: 0
thank you for the reply....
gives me a real good place to start working from.
do you think that i ought to pull out the dashboard too before giving things a shove?
i think i have managed to wrap my head around most of what you have said, and it makes sense. those plates that i would need to weld to the cab, could you give me a ballpark on size, and gauge of metal?
from what you said, the repair is going to need to start on the donor frame, this one is J’ed
after the accident, i was able to lift the handle, and the door shoved right on open. i was blessed to be able to walk away from the accident.
thanks again for answering. its a LOT of help it gives me a REAL GOOD idea of what i need to do.......
"Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever" (rustanddust)
09/07/2017 at 19:14, STARS: 1
Holy Christmas, that front end image. The end of the right rail is almost left of center line...
Pulling the dash may not be a bad idea, especially if you’ve got to do some work on the left hinge post, which I think you may.
I meant to link an image of the plates I was talking about, but obviously didn’t (sorry).
You can see where the pulling attachment slides over the rolled end, and the hook grabs the loop in the attachment. The unrolled end gets tac-welded as close to the impact point as possible, and broken free with a grinder after pulling.
The image above is using spot welded studs to pull comparatively minor creasing out of thin sheetmetal, but it’s the same theory on a smaller scale.
You might be able to fab something up with some stock steel, I’m guessing 10-12 gauge should work. As for width, it kind of depends on the buckle. I’d say a 2-3" plate on each cab corner, with 2 or 3 1"-1.5" kind of evenly spaced across the back wall below the window (I’m pretty sure it’s arched in across the width of the cab, but I wish I could see it in person, even photos are tough). Tacking a chain link on one end to grab/pull, or even cutting a hole and looping chain/braided cable/a hook through might work. I don’t think you’ll get enough force to rip the metal with a come-along (I’ve also been trying to figure out a decent way to use the cherry-picker ram and a pulley to create a frame machine/hydraulic pulling system for you, but I’m probably out of my league there). Gentle tapping around the outside edges of the cab corners buckled areas while pulling/under tension will help “relax” the metal back into it’s stamped shape, as well.
After seeing the front end, I’d definitely start out by getting the cab off the frame. That frame is buckled, diamond, swayed, and sagged all at once. If you’ve got a tram gauge, you can diagonally measure your cab mount bolts to make sure they’re square. Height is tougher to read with a tram, but you can get an idea. You can also get a leg up on donor frames cab mount measurements with the tram, and relocate brackets to accommodate the cab this way.
Hope this helps, I wish I could see it in person to be more accurate/useful. The old carpentry “measure twice, cut once” adage rings true in body work as well. Cross measurements of door openings side to side (OEM spec sheets may be available with a bit of Google digging, now that I think of it), hinge cross measurements (top left to bottom right vs top right to bottom left) go a long way to making sure the fine-tuning during reassembly will be minimal.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
09/07/2017 at 21:15, STARS: 0
this is a whole TON of help....... i should be able to find some used up bed frame laying in the yard to weld to the cab for pulling. and once i have it sitting on the donor frame, i have some thick angle iron that i can weld some brackets to pull against the new frame to get things closer to square. can pull against the donor bumpers too..... i have a come along or two that i can use, and i should be able to borrow a chain boomer or two in order to keep tension on chains..
COME TO THINK OF IT. i have an old chainfall hoist laying in the yard that if i can find a way to brace up, i can get mean with things.
i have one of my old parts trucks in the yard if i need to get measurements for where things ought to be..... i can also skin out an old washing machine if i need more pull tabs.
ill have to get a spiral to chart measurements......
i greatly appreciate your help. you have given me a solid place to start from, to putting the truck back right.
thank you.......
"Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever" (rustanddust)
09/07/2017 at 21:44, STARS: 1
Glad to help :)
PS: if you’re pulling the cab on the new frame, chaining the front of the cab to the frame should help direct the force to the metal, as opposed to “rocking” the cab backwards and losing that energy, or distorting the floor crossmember/cab mounts.
Turnbuckles make it easy to preload against the pull.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
09/07/2017 at 22:11, STARS: 1
i’ll dig out the chain binders to brace things up, and preload.... should be enough tools in the yard to make this work......
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
09/17/2017 at 20:21, STARS: 1
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdGBGxVrf988KQiT_WczFnw
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
09/17/2017 at 21:25, STARS: 0
looks like you have managed to get a good little bit done.....
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
09/18/2017 at 01:05, STARS: 1
I’m trying to do it reasonably well and document it. I bought a ballast resister. Next time I get out there, I should have it running again.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
10/12/2017 at 15:39, STARS: 0
Hey Mister, what have you been up to? The Wine Country wildfires you’ve been reading about are 45 minutes from my house and it’s a terrible thing.
I haven’t been on Oppo nearly as much lately. I’m not sure whether it’s politics and Las Vegas, or double standards that apply to Mods differently than Oppos, but I’m kinda off Oppo now. Maybe my honeymoon ended. But I have a few really good friends here that I don’t wanna lose touch with.
I’m making slow but steady progress on Rusty. I want to see if the charging system checks out. This one has the older Delcotron style with separate voltage regulator, and some things are disconnected by the old guy and his son that I bought the van from. I have a complete wiring schematic from the shop manual and it’s very clearly presented, and the electrical system is not very complex, so I should be able to sort it.
The clutch pedal does not disengage the clutch, and my Original Gangster pal in Nashville says the clutch disc is probably stuck to the flywheel and he says that if I put the van in 3rd hear, the starter should probably overcome it. Or a putty knife... We’ll see.
I did some cleaning inside and with the freshened valve cover, the thing is a good deal more presentable now. But I don’t have any “pedal” on the brakes. I have to bleed them and see what’s up. It’s an older, single-circuit brake system that I’d like to upgrade to something newer.
What’s new with your projects?
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
10/12/2017 at 18:15, STARS: 0
wow, those wildfires are close.
say, dont let the mods, or politics, or double standards run you off. we ALL have opinions, dont let people tell you that your opinions are wrong, or any less valuable, period.......
i been watching all the progress that you have been making, looking good.
yeah, you’ll definitely want to upgrade that master cylinder to some sort of other one that has 2 circuits in it. running out of fluid for the brakes is a real thing in older stuffs. on the plus side, the van is a manual, so that you can always shut it off, put it in gear, and come to a stop......
i havent gotten a chance to make too much progress on the junk in the yard, i been working on the brakes on daily reliable transportation, and trying to figure out a ridiculously scary sounding death noise that it is making. progress on that front has been slower than i would like, but i finally got the rear brakes swapped out that i had been working on. took me a couple of DAYS working on it off and on.
i finally have a few dollars that i can rub together. it means that i can actually buy parts to get a few of these projects off the ground. might actually put a different truck running, if i cant get the death noise to shut up shortly.......
youll know more, when i know more.
i am always glad to hear from you. you make this place worth visiting, and i would be downright disappointed if you let them run you out........
stay safe......
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
10/12/2017 at 18:27, STARS: 1
Wow; thank you. In a year or several, I hope to drive Rusty across the country and when I do, I hope I can look you up and treat you to a meal.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
10/12/2017 at 19:15, STARS: 0
it would be a GREAT treat, for me to get to meet in person, wonderful people such as yourself.....
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
10/12/2017 at 23:45, STARS: 1
One of these years.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
10/18/2017 at 17:40, STARS: 0
Thanks for the star today. I bought a couple of cans of paint for Rusty. I was about to order a rattle can of GM Medium Blue MA5190 for $30 with shipping, but when I called them to ask what primer I should use, the lady said Dupli-color self-etching primer and when I went to the parts store, they had that as well as a “G.M. Blue” engine paint that is quite similar in color. Mind you, I am not detailing the van. I am getting a 46-year-old van driveable and presentable.
In other news, I removed the steering/shifter column and disassembled and cleaned and lubricated it. It turns out I could have accomplished what I needed with a squirt of oil, but I couldn’t know that until I took it apart and saw how it was put together. C’est la vie. It’ll work well until I get my T-5 installed. I also need to replace the turn signal switch. I’m waiting for a reply from Dave the Car Guy. He’s my in-house GM counsel...
What’s new with you?
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
10/18/2017 at 18:02, STARS: 0
that windex sure got the color looking nice quick. fun stuff those old turn switches, i try to not mess with them if i dont NEED to. there isnt a whole lot to do to get to them. gotta pull the steering wheel if i recall.....
i been still fighting with the daily. the transfer case SEEMS to be making death noises. it might of finally stretched the chain in it. going to muster up the enthusiasm here in a little while and crawl underneath it, and see what i can figure out. i am thinking i might be able to pull the driveshafts, and let it run in gear, and have a listen. up to now i have YET to determine EXACTLY where the noise is coming from. its been just this ominous death noise that has been getting worse. and it has been a noise that is intermittent, and didnt last long when it happened. its gotten nearly continuous now, so it should be easier to at least pin down. thankfully i have a spare transfer case( not sure how much better it is, but so long as it doesnt growl going down the road it would be an improvement) i already pulled the front shaft to see if there was something in a bind between the front half and the back half of the driveline, but it still growls going down the road on just the rear shaft....... so all i got left, is to pull the back shaft, and see if it still growls. i ought give me a reason to break out the old listening stick, and poke around.......
FUN STUFF........ right?........
always fun to see you posting around...... its good to see you.....
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
10/18/2017 at 18:06, STARS: 1
Thanks. Don’t scoff, but I am a BIG believer in synthetic gear lube. Synthetic motor oil, not necessarily. But I’ve had a number of manual transmissions and other geared things that synthetic lube has given back
years
of life.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
10/18/2017 at 18:24, STARS: 0
yeah, $ynthetics are great.i just hate paying for them. i usually dont get to run whatever i am trying to put it in long enough before i have to open it back up and drain out whatever synthetic i have put in it. good stuff though. i just dont get too much life out of fluids. i try and run them in the engines i am trying to wring more life out of.......
i will have to give the case a close listen, but its death noises for sure, where ever they are coming from......
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
10/18/2017 at 18:30, STARS: 1
I had a VW transaxle once in a diesel Rabbit that did NOT like to go into second gear. I filled with a Red Line strict GL4 product that took years off that transaxle and made it driveable again. $40, I probably spent. Beat the crap out of pulling the transaxle...
Sounds like your transfer case is beyond snake oil at this point.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
10/18/2017 at 18:33, STARS: 1
yeah, i just need to get under there to confirm the worst.......