by "mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
Published 09/05/2017 at 11:00
by "mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
Published 09/05/2017 at 11:00
No Tags
STARS: 8
DACA opinion inside from Oppo’s resident republican.
Nobody, including republicans, wants to deport individuals who were brought here without making the choice, to send people to countries they don’t know with languages they may not speak.
The issue raised by republicans when Obama passed DACA by executive fiat was procedural, that it overstepped executive authority and that anyone could come along and rescind for any reason, dramatically impacting these individuals. The answer needs to be a legislative response, not an executive or judicial response.
Obama was wrong to overstep executive authority to implement DACA, but that doesn’t mean the policy itself is bad policy. Trump is not wrong to undo by executive authority that which should never have been done by executive authority to begin with (see also: million acre monuments and the antiquities act). The six month waiting period is obviously intended to provide Congress the opportunity to codify the program the right way.
The only remaining question is whether something that genuinely holds bipartisan support will turn into yet another political pissing match and yet another failure of Washington, or whether the adults (on both sides of the isle) will return to proper governance.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 11:05, STARS: 6
> The six month waiting period is obviously intended to provide Congress the opportunity to codify the program the right way.
WHYYYY do it this way? Who cares if the legislation came into being by executive order, who cares if that’s wrong? It’s doing GOOD things. Leave it in place, don’t hang it in the balance. In the mean time you have 6 months to figure out of congress can agree on legislation that implements it in the right way (which given recent history is not a given).
Why make a big show of rescinding this executive order? The only reason I can see is “because Obama did it”.
"CB" (jrcb)
09/05/2017 at 11:05, STARS: 13
If having it pass through Congress is the goal, why not start that process before stating DACA is going to be ending in six months? It’d take years for a bill like this to be put through, and that can leave a lot of people in legal limbo until something is passed.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
09/05/2017 at 11:15, STARS: 5
I thought this was interesting.
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"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
09/05/2017 at 11:15, STARS: 4
Hey look, stuff we can agree on. This is solid Oppo politics. I don’t think that Trump’s “6 months till it ends” was as well thought out as you might, but it at least gives the adults in the room some time to (hopefully) make DACA a permanent policy.
"TorqueToYield" (torquetoyield)
09/05/2017 at 11:15, STARS: 5
Trump panders to his anti-immigrant base. News at 11.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 11:17, STARS: 3
Exactly, why sentence people to this legal limbo if Obama’s executive order can simply remain in effect until we have a competent congress? It’s not fair to the children affected by this to fall victim to what I essentially see as Trump being upset Obama did something good the wrong way.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
09/05/2017 at 11:17, STARS: 4
So what you’re saying is...presidential executive orders are bad?
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 11:25, STARS: 6
As someone else pointed out, it’s pandering to the anti-immigration base while still seeming reasonable to those that do care about these kids.
Why are we so hung up on technicalities of how DACA came about. We should be worried about these children. Sure, legislate it the correct way, but don’t put a clock on the deportation of kids that know nothing of the country they’d be sent off too if congress fails. Rescind when you have a replacement ready.
"Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again." (sir-stig)
09/05/2017 at 11:35, STARS: 6
I see you haven’t looked at any comment section on facebook where daca is mentioned, there are a lot of people gleeful that people are being (or will be) sent back. I’m glad you aren’t one of them, and I can see your point, I think a lot of the progress Obama tried to make was hamstrung by an “us vs them” mentality in congress, part of the problem with humans is our tribalism overriding our logical thinking.
"His Stigness" (HisStigness)
09/05/2017 at 11:50, STARS: 9
I don’t know the specifics of how DACA was implemented, but I’d like to speak in general of Obama’s term and the use of EO’s.
Congress forced his hand, in one way or another. I’m honestly not sure how you would expect to work with a Congress who had one leader say, “Our goal is to make him a one term president” within the first few days of the administration.
The obstruction was absolutely astounding, and I’m sure you’ve seen just how unproductive the last few Congress sessions have been compared to every other session in history.
And if you think Republicans were not obstructing for obstructions safe, I’ll just end with the Supreme Court nomination. I’d love for a Republican to explain that one.
"whoarder is tellurium" (whoarder)
09/05/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 2
So, Congress, The Constitution and balance of power in government doesn’t matter huh?
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 1
The whole thing is simple. The executive cannot do any action that the Constitution or Congress does not explicitly give him the authority to do.
On those grounds, DACA should be ended. Otherwise you have a situation like this:
Your state’s AG comes out and says that they aren’t going to prosecute bank robbers under age 21, pending the state passing a law granting amnesty against bank robberies committed under age 21. It’s not like a whole lot of money is stolen in the grand scheme of things (The Rich Banksters, and the FDIC). Oh, and look at the economic circumstances of the under-21 bank robber, it’s not fair to lock them up for years when all the stolen money will get spent in the economy anyway, so it’s actually a benefit for the increased economic activity.
You, I, and everyone else would call this absolute lunacy and we would demand the removal of said official.
At the same time, Congress needs to get off its duff and pass a bill to handle the situation (since the authority to determine the immigration law rests with the Congress), and this is something that needs to be handled, since this is dealing with people who did not make the choice to break the law and enter illegally.
But we know that won’t happen, not while Mitch McConnell is the Senate Majority Leader (I suspect he actually likes being the Minority Leader...)
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
09/05/2017 at 12:09, STARS: 2
I think doing things the right way instead of by misuse of executive privilege is important. We need to reinforce our system, not undermine it. This could be an opportunity for the congress to reinforce its role in determining immigration policy and a stepping stone back to working together for a goal. I sincerely hope they don’t blow it. Then ball is in their court now.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 12:10, STARS: 3
Why are we so hung up on technicalities of how DACA came about. We should be worried about these children.
Because then you don’t have government, good sir. You have tyranny of the executive.
Seems to me there was a revolution that was fought some time back against that very thing. I seem to recall a big party in Boston beforehand at the docks...
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
09/05/2017 at 12:11, STARS: 1
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It’s worked out for Obamacare, eh?
Anyway, politicians politicking. Dems, Reps, whatever. I wish I wasn’t jaded as much as I was. Whoever puts the most money in someone’s back pocket wins.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 12:17, STARS: 1
That is such an over-dramatization of what I said and taken out of context given everything else I’ve said. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care at all, but we should do this in a manner that doesn’t risk those children!
I’m not saying we should NOT keep executive over-reach in check. But we should have a properly legislated DACA replacement before we rescind it with the risk of those children being in legal limbo, or worse, deported to a country they do not know.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 12:19, STARS: 0
Good deeds can have bad motives. Bypassing the system because you don’t agree with the system (which is how we got DACA in the first place) is a bad motive when government is predicated on the system’s existence.
I would also say that it is not fair to the children that Obama created the circumstances where they would be in this mess in the first place (by doing this through executive action). Doing the right thing for the wrong reason got them there.
T.S. Elliot once wrote that the greatest treason is to do the right things for the wrong reasons. There is wisdom in his words.
"nermal" (nermal)
09/05/2017 at 12:24, STARS: 3
The key word in DACA that is being overlooked is the “Deferred” one. Now that action has been deferred long enough, it is time to actually take action. To continue to defer action on unintentionally illegal child immigrants and leave them in a state of legal purgatory doesn’t do anybody any good.
Things that need to be accomplished are dealing with the individuals currently in the US on DACA permits, and setting up a structure for dealing with future unintentionally illegal child immigrants. For the existing ones, move them to a traditional work visa / green card program. Given the media attention this has gotten, it will be a good opportunity for the companies they work for to virtue signal and sponsor work visas.
What about the illegal immigrants that brought the children here that we are deferring action on? What should we do about them?
What about for moving forward? We need to discourage illegal immigration and encourage legal immigration. In doing so we need to attract high quality immigrants that want to become Americans and live out their own version of the American Dream, while discouraging criminals and others that are either looking to harm the US or just leech off the system. In the process, we also need to avoid being heartless bastards that deport helpless children that weren’t brought here on their own accord.
The case for The Wall is becoming stronger, as it will help discourage illegal immigration. Cracking down on businesses that employ illegal immigrants will be uncomfortable, but will help long-term.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 12:26, STARS: 2
You either have government or you don’t. As I said to you elsewhere, doing the right things for the wrong reasons has serious consequences.
I lay the blame for the mess that these children are in at Obama’s feet. Should it have been handled by the Congress sooner? YES! Should they be compassionate to children who didn’t have a choice? YES!
Should you undermine the entire foundation of government by declaring (as you are doing):
THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS
I’ll give you a hint: One may not do evil so that good may result from it.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 12:26, STARS: 0
I don’t know the specifics very well, but I do know that congress to some extent forced Obama’s hand. We can’t solely blame Obama for this.
Also your entire post is about who deserves the blame and who therefore is to blame when these children suffer. But what we should be doing is making sure those children don’t suffer, or suffer minimally. We have a chance to do so! We cannot undo the past, but we certainly could’ve approached the future in a kinder more humane manner.
That’s the issue at hand, the underlying issue certainly is abuse of executive power. But it goes hand in hand with a congress that couldn’t get anything done then or now.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 12:30, STARS: 0
I never made that declaration.
I’ve been saying all along, and I guess I’ll say it again: have a replacement in place before rescinding the executive order.
When did I ever say anything tantamount to “the ends justify the means”? I’m simply saying keep a good thing in place while you legislate the similar or identical thing into place.
Anything that puts these kids at risk of deportation is just political grandstanding.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 0
You cannot conflate the issue of abuse of executive power with the passage of a desired legislative outcome.
The executive action was executed by President Obama. No one else forced him to make that executive action. He alone is responsible for the fallout of his actions, and no one else.
Likewise, the Congress is responsible for their own actions. Don’t like what they are doing? Hold them to account.
We can’t solely blame Obama for this.
¡Si se puede!
"yamahog" (yamahog)
09/05/2017 at 12:34, STARS: 0
DACA provided a way for people to pay for work permits, file taxes, etc yet provided no path to citizenship. Repealing it now with no provisions for existing participants just fucks over a bunch of people who were trying to do things as correctly as they could given their circumstances. The wall is still a massive boondoggle and a complete waste of money.
"TheHondaBro" (wwaveform)
09/05/2017 at 12:38, STARS: 1
I thought you hated politics on Oppo.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 12:40, STARS: 0
Yes, you are making that declaration.
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The Democrat Party during my lifetime has been the party of the ends justifying the means. Doesn’t matter what gets run over or destroyed in the way, all that matters is that they get what they goddamn want .
have a replacement in place before rescinding the executive order.
The system doesn’t work that way. You may want it to work that way, but that does not mean the system does work that way.
DJT can rescind any executive action he wants, at any time. He could play according to your desired rules, but there is no statutory or Constitutional prohibition preventing that action.
I’m sorry that these kids are on the middle of the political battlefield, but they were placed there for partisan reasons by President Obama. Congress has the ability to fix that. DJT has no obligation to wait on them, which is something *I* personally do not like one bit , but I have to accept as this is how our system is constructed.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 12:41, STARS: 0
> He alone is responsible for the fallout of his actions, and no one else.
I’d say Trump would be to blame, because he rescinded the executive order. He didn’t HAVE to do it, or at least not in the manner that he did. He could’ve ensured or at least promised a smooth transition that doesn’t put children at risk. Instead he chose to put a 6 month clock on it whether congress is ready by then or not.
Obama did a good thing that has been found to have been put into place in the wrong way. He may be to blame for the predicament we now find ourselves in, but will NOT have directly caused those kids to be deported if it were to come to that.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 12:54, STARS: 0
The Democrat Party during my lifetime has been the party of the ends justifying the means. Doesn’t matter what gets run over or destroyed in the way, all that matters is that they get what they goddamn want .
There’s two sides to every coin. You as a republican feel wronged by the democrats, I feel the exact opposite way. The republican party in my eyes literally is trying to kill people by taking their health care and then wants to make their rich friends richer by redistributing the health care savings to them. Same thing with tax proposals and all of this under the guise of some rephrased version of trickle down economics. We’ve already found out that it doesn’t work! We’ve already discovered it’s just a lie they tell us to line wealthy people’s pockets. That’s where it goes, in their pockets, they don’t spend it. Whereas someone decidedly more average would actually go buy something they need. Like a fridge, or a car, or food for their kids. You know, stuff that keeps the economy going.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 13:02, STARS: 0
DJT has no obligation to smooth anything over. Neither did Obama, which is why we had this overreach in the first place .
Obama did a good thing that has been found to have been put into place in the wrong way.
Point of order: One of the parties knew it was the wrong way the second he made the executive order. Hint: It wasn’t the Democrats.
Instead he chose to put a 6 month clock on it whether congress is ready by then or not.
Oh, you mean he’s smoothing things over by providing a timeline.
He may be to blame for the predicament we now find ourselves in, but will NOT have directly caused those kids to be deported if it were to come to that.
So the proximate cause of the situation isn’t responsible for the consequences of the situation. So If P, then somehow Q cannot actually exist because it’s politically convenient for Q to not exist.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 13:11, STARS: 0
So if Obama saves your life by putting you on a ventilator by executive order and Trump then orders it taken away from you in 6 months. Congress doesn’t act in time, you die.
Is it then Obama’s fault that you died? He didn’t order your ventilator be taken away and although the fact that you got that ventilator was achieved by questionable means. It’s Trump + Congress that pulled the plug. Sure Obama (and in my opinion, let’s call it “the political climate” at the time) put you at risk, but you didn’t need to die. Nor do those kids need to be deported FOR ANY REASON. If we are all in agreement that those kids don’t deserve deportation, of course.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 13:25, STARS: 0
You as a republican
Get it right: I’m a libertarian. I believe in things that would give the old white dudes in the Republican party a collective aneurysm (and not just toking it up, either).
The republican party in my eyes literally is trying to kill people by taking their health care
And this is why we have the problems we do in political discourse. You believe something that is so incredibly absurd that it is, for all practical purposes, impossible to explain how absurd it sounds to the rest of us.
I mean, really. If you equate “not paying for health care” as “literally trying to kill people”, then no one is going to be able to have a discussion with you in good faith.
Same thing with tax proposals and all of this under the guise of some rephrased version of trickle down economics. We’ve already found out that it doesn’t work!
According to whom? The Kennedy tax cuts seemed to have worked pretty darn well in retrospect. But of course, you can only cut taxes on people who are already paying those taxes, which seems to be the main issue with taxing income, as opposed to taxing consumption and getting rid of the income tax completely.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 13:32, STARS: 0
So if Obama saves your life by putting you on a ventilator by executive order and Trump then orders it taken away from you in 6 months. Congress doesn’t act in time, you die.
Bad analogy. It’s not his decision to make in the first place, which is actually analogous to the DACA EO.
Is it then Obama’s fault that you died?
It’s his fault that he did not respect the wishes of the people whose authority it is to make that decision. (e.g. I may have a DNR clause in my living will, or my designee in a MPOA may make that decision based on conversations they have with me)
If we are all in agreement that those kids don’t deserve deportation, of course.
Personally, I feel they don’t deserve it, but that provision is currently not written into law, so my personal feelings have no bearing on what the law prescribes.
This is for Congress to fix.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 13:53, STARS: 0
I mean, really. If you equate “not paying for health care” as “literally trying to kill people”, then no one is going to be able to have a discussion with you in good faith.
There is a big difference in not paying for health care that previously existed and simply not deciding to pay for it. One of them is roughly conspiracy to commit murder, while the other is simply upholding the status quo.
I think both are wrong by the way, the wealthiest nation on the planet shouldn’t be letting people die because they don’t have access to healthcare. It’s especially egregious in cases where it could have been prevented for less than money than it cost to admit them to the ER.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 13:56, STARS: 0
According to whom? The Kennedy tax cuts seemed to have worked pretty darn well in retrospect. But of course, you can only cut taxes on people who are already paying those taxes, which seems to be the main issue with taxing income, as opposed to taxing consumption and getting rid of the income tax completely.
According to the fact that many wealthy people can simply pocket a tax cut, whereas if I got a tax cut I might consider putting AC in my house, or buying a second car, or upgrade my appliances, or even something as simple as having a dinner at red lobster (eww, but you get the point). The ultra rich, to which many of these tax cut propose we give this money simply add it to their investment accounts, investment accounts, trust funds, etc. It doesn’t create real commerce.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 14:00, STARS: 0
But why do the children need to put at risk of deportation if both sides agree that they shouldn’t be? Or if one side does want to deport, call a spade a spade.
Because if both sides were in agreement, the fuck is the point of all this? It’s a bunch of political dick swinging. Is what.
"Blondude" (Blondude)
09/05/2017 at 14:10, STARS: 1
I’m just here for the BPR Global GT.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 14:37, STARS: 0
There is a big difference in not paying for health care that previously existed and simply not deciding to pay for it. One of them is roughly conspiracy to commit murder, while the other is simply upholding the status quo.
So “not deciding to pay for it” is the same as “providing tax exemptions and other subsidies to pay for premiums along with guaranteed reinsurance for issuers via risk corridors, and shuffling everyone who cannot afford the ridiculous premiums onto a failing existing government program that no one actually accepts.”
Newsflash: That’s called “deciding to pay for it.”
I think both are wrong by the way, the wealthiest nation on the planet shouldn’t be letting people die because they don’t have access to healthcare.
You’re really going to attempt the whole “Access === Someone else pays for it” chestnut, aren’t you? That’s been so thoroughly debunked as utter talking point crap, so that isn’t even in play.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
09/05/2017 at 14:37, STARS: 0
But why do the children need to put at risk of deportation if both sides agree that they shouldn’t be?
Then it should be trivial to pass a law in 6 months. What’s the problem?
I’m going to get back to work, running my business, since you know, that’s not actual commerce when I’m investing my money into my own business (rather than buying another car or replacing my HVAC system).
The other people in my office are as entertained as I am about your responses.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 14:59, STARS: 0
You’re really going to attempt the whole “Access === Someone else pays for it” chestnut, aren’t you? That’s been so thoroughly debunked as utter talking point crap, so that isn’t even in play.
What do you mean? You are saying that if universal health care is funded by tax payers it’s a bad thing?
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
09/05/2017 at 15:01, STARS: 0
> Then it should be trivial to pass a law in 6 months. What’s the problem?
Congress has not filled me with confidence lately, really I can’t remember when they have. So I’m a bit skeptical that this trivial. But I sure hope so!
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
09/05/2017 at 15:23, STARS: 2
It seems someone has already pointed out that you have no idea what DACA actually is.
As for your wall comment. A wall won’t discourage illegal immigration. So far the only thing that has discouraged illegal immigration is when our economy took a shit. If there are available jobs, hardworking people will come here to work them, regardless of whether there is a wall in their way. You know what is lot harder to get through than a wall? The Sonoran Desert. If dying of thirst in the desert isn’t enough to persuade people from coming, a measly wall won’t. Arizona has hundreds of people die every year in the desert. These guys are’t afraid of a wall. They’re afraid of watching their families go hungry.
"nermal" (nermal)
09/05/2017 at 17:47, STARS: 0
So, these guys aren’t afraid of a desert or a wall, or the hard work that follows, but filling out the proper paperwork is out of the question?
What about the employers hiring them?
Obviously sending the economy to shit is out of the question, at least in the current administration.
"nermal" (nermal)
09/05/2017 at 18:00, STARS: 1
Repealing it now with a 6 month grace period to get new legislation in place is brilliant, as it is creating a sense of urgency. Waiting for the replacement legislation to get in first could potentially and likely result in delays. How is it fucking over the people that are currently enrolled? They know they are on 2 year renewals. That means there is an option at the end to not renew.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
09/05/2017 at 20:53, STARS: 0
Not sure how I feel till I read more.
regarding EO, Dan Carlin had a great episode on the Imperialist Presidency (maybe #282) and how for 90 years congress as graciously handed authority to the president and wiped their hands clean. No vote, means no vote they then have to face citizens in town halls over. Meanwhile they can polish their talking points, rally their base, kick the can down the road and sit on their ass instead of being responsible for a solution,
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
09/05/2017 at 21:41, STARS: 1
It’s not about filling out paperwork. It’s about the legal representation and money required to secure a work visa. There’s a reason migrant workers weren’t required to obtain work visas in the past. They don’t have the money for it.
"briannutter1" (briannutter1)
09/06/2017 at 05:18, STARS: 0
A congress that hasn’t acted on immigration reform (in spite of its own best interests) for say the last...ummm.....30 odd years or so -makes a man with a pen pretty ballsey. At least it’s off tdc now.
"Sweet Trav" (thespunbearing)
09/06/2017 at 08:39, STARS: 1
How exactly is a giant wall going to stop illegal immigration? It may stop illegal border crossings, but it does not, and cannot stop illegal immigration, considering most just over stay their visas when they fly or drive in legally.
Also what are the differentiating factors between “High Quality Immigrants” and “Low Quality Immigrants?”
I would argue that every one of the DACA participants is a “High Quality Immigrant” They might not have come here legally, but are now doing everything in their power to be lawful citizens and live their lives to the best of their abilities, which I consider being a good American.
You really cant make a quality judgement on immigrants, and not make the same judgement on citizens. Just because you’re born here you get to be a lazy piece of shit and have all the benefits of this country for never having had to lift a finger? Fuck that, we have a bunch of terrible citizens here.
What DACA should have been was a path to citizenship, but it never could be due to the limits of executive power.
Also as an aside Republicans can shut the hell up about executive overreach. Reagan the conservative man-god being the worst modern offender of executive overreach, G.W. Bush created a whole extra federal law enforcement group, yet It’s the Democrats who are big government. (Both parties are big government)
As for:
while discouraging criminals and others that are either looking to harm the US or just leech off the system .
You mean like US based multinational corporations and their CEO’s? When Republicans talk about leeching off the system, Red States use more federal aid than Blue states.
But I digress.
I’ve never been in a situation where I’m packing what I can on my back and leaving to a better country, and I hope I never have to. I’ve been to Mexico, and I know what these families are trying to escape. They should be welcome here. Anyone who wants to be a member of our great experiment should be allowed to come here, live their lives, earn citizenship and contribute.
What happened to “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
"nermal" (nermal)
09/06/2017 at 11:05, STARS: 0
You are correct that The Wall will not stop people from overstaying their visas. It will stop illegal border crossings, in addition to funneling those wishing to cross into checkpoints. This will also reduce human trafficking, drugs, etc. Did you read the news story a few weeks ago about the box truck full of immigrants that had multiple die of overheating in a parking lot?
There absolutely is judgment on those applying for immigration status now! For example, you’ll have a much easier time getting a green card if you’re a doctor or scientist with an advanced degree than if you are an unskilled worker. Why wouldn’t we encourage the best to come here?
There are also already options for asylum or refugee status. So we’re not cold hearted bastards that are turning away the most needy.
Also, if you are born in the US, that makes you a US citizen with all of the benefits that go with it, especially the Freedoms that so many take for granted. Same goes for if you are born in another country, you automatically get all of the benefits (or detriments) that go along with being a citizen there.
"nermal" (nermal)
09/06/2017 at 11:17, STARS: 0
So the next step to that line of thought is to put the responsibility to the employers that are hiring migrant workers. How do you feel about increasing penalties for businesses caught employing illegal immigrants? What about regular audits for them?
This is generally not a problem for white collar immigrants, such as doctors. The problem here is in areas such as agriculture that benefit from cheap, unskilled labor. Cutting off the supply of cheap, unskilled labor will cause costs to go up, all the way down the line to the consumer.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
09/06/2017 at 13:33, STARS: 0
I used to help run a business in the Southwest. We had to run everyone through EVerify. The penalties are pretty stiff if you’re caught hiring people without work visas. Two of our employees were from Mexico. Most of the businesses I dealt with who hired undocumented inmigrants were scumbags who abused their workers. These guys weren’t taking away anyone’s jobs, because the companies would be out of business if they were following labor laws.
Bottom line is, if there wasn’t a need for these workers, they wouldn’t be coming here. A wall doesn’t stop the need (nevermind the fact there already are walls on the border). People who come here without visas aren’t doing so because they’re lazy. They’re doing it out of necessity. They would gladly take a green card if you offered one to them.
The people who I hear complaining the most about “illegals” are the same ones shopping at Walmart and the like, buying the cheapest crap food they can and benefitting the most from the cheap labor provided by these “illegals” they seem to hate so much.