by "shpuker" (shpuker)
Published 08/02/2017 at 00:00
by "shpuker" (shpuker)
Published 08/02/2017 at 00:00
Tags: Mazda
; Really
; Vehicle
; Line-up
STARS: 2
Welcome to the second edition of, Really, That’s Your Vehicle Lineup? A series where I focus my alcohol fueled internet rage on an automaker and tell them how terrible they are at their jobs! Next up, Mazda.
First things first... Holy hell is the new Mazda 6 a good looking car. Scared you there for a second didn’t I? Oh yea and for whatever reason only like 4 people voted in the straw poll I put up earlier to figure out who was next, so I just picked someone.
Oh and why the fuck do half of your model names include Mazda in the fucking name? Seriously you don’t need to call it a Mazda Mazda3...
MOVING ON! Let’s list out the lineup options before we get too far into this:
Mazda3: 2.0L Skyactiv-G, 2.5L Skyactive-G
Mazda6: 2.5L Skyactiv-G
CX-3: 2.0L Skyactiv-G
CX-5: 2.5L Skyactiv-G
CX-9: 2.5L Turbo Skyactiv-G
MX-5: 2.0L Skyactiv-G
Yea you read that right. Mazda’s engine lineup is about as far from Ford’s over inflated bullshit as possible. They have fucking 3 total engine packages... THREE... It also means that this fucking car
Has the same goddamn engines as this beautiful fucking car...
WHY MAZDA?!? JUST PUT A FUCKING TURBO ON THAT 2.0L AND ALL WILL BE WELL!
Whatever. At least the engine makes decent... It makes 155 HP?.... Jesus that’s almost as bad as Ford’s 2.0L N/A... Oh the Ford engine is actually the predecessor to the Mazda Skyactiv 2.0L?... Wait so if Mazda released a Mazda3 2.0L Turbo it’d for sure put down better numbers than the ST?... And it sits on a remarkably well sorted platform? Oh and if it went into the Miata we’d be getting a 250+ HP Miata? What the holy fuck are you doing with yourselves Mazda?!?
Let’s get serious for a second. The Mazda3 is a phenomenal car that outclasses pretty much anything else that tries to compete with it, handles like a dream, gets pretty respectable fuel economy, oh and gets out performed by almost everyone... Seriously you can get an Elantra with 12 HP more than the 2.5L Mazda 3... Also a good topic to bring up, why the fuck can you get a 2.5L Mazda3 but not a 2.5L CX-3?... Explain that fucking gem of a fact.
So with all of that said, what do you think Mazda’s top selling vehicle is? The 3? Nope. What about the 6! That has to be it!... Nope, doesn’t sell well at all. It’s the CX-5....
Now don’t get me wrong, I really like the CX-5. I think it looks great, handles great, and it’s easily got my favorite interior in its class, but on paper it shouldn’t really sell very well. It doesn’t lead it’s class in anything but build quality and handling characteristics. Oh wait what’s that you say? It’s sales only look good in comparison to the rest of Mazda’s lineup and Ford sells more Escapes than Mazda sells total?... As in company wide?... Oh... What the shit Mazda? Fuck it let’s dig into your secret vault of engines and try and re-imagine what your lineup could be.
Mazda3: 2.0L, 2.0L, Turbo (MS)
Mazda6: 2.0L, 2.0L Turbo, 2.5L Turbo (MS)
Mazda9: 2.0L Turbo, 2.5L Turbo, 1.3L Range-Extended BEV
CX-3: 2.0L, 2.0L Turbo (MS)
CX-5: 2.0L, 2.0L Turbo, 2.5L Turbo (MS)
CX-9: 2.0L Turbo, 2.5L Turbo, 1.3L Range-Extended BEV
MX-5: 2.0L, 2.0L Turbo (MS)
Notable changes/Lack of changes:
Mazda9: For whatever reason Mazda doesn’t sell very well, and if you ask me I’d say it’s because they’re missing the demographic that would eat up their cars the most. This car, the Mazda9, would be targeting the large car segment sales head on. That’s right. I’m suggesting they launch a new model is the fastest shrinking vehicle segment in the US. Get at me.
Leaving the 2.0L N/A in the lineup but taking it out of Ford’s? Simple, Mazda figured out how to run stupid high compression ratios and return great fuel economy numbers out of that engine while keeping it reliable and it has a decent power band. AKA it doesn’t suck, they don’t have anything better, and people buy it, so don’t get rid of it. (To be fair, if it turns out that Mazdas 1.5L takes a turbo nicely and outperforms the 2.0L N/A then obviously I’d suggest it instead)
No 2.5L N/A? You could achieve better power with a very lightly boosted 2.0L while retaining most of the fuel economy. Fuck the 2.5L N/A
2.5L Turbo Mazda6 and a 2.0L HO Turbo Mazda3?? AKA take on the Focus ST/Civic Type-R sales as well as the Fusion Sport segment. They’d suddenly have the best overall vehicles in both segments, its a no-brainer. (Yes that means the return of the MazdaSpeed branding)
Oh yea that whole 1.3L Skyactiv-G Range-Extended BEV part? Yea basically you slide in a $35,000 or so large car with a quality interior that can run as a BEV 90% of the time and if needed kicks on Mazda’s baby 83 HP 1.3L to re-charge the batteries. Give it say a 200 mile all-electric range and a 400 mile total range with +200 mi per fill up and suddenly you have the most practical “BEV” on the market.
Overall prognosis? Mazda’s US sales are pretty shit, they’ve been pretty shit for a while, and they need something crazy to shake things up. To me the RE-BEV’s and the turbo MazdaSpeed Miata do a good job of kicking that off while the return of the MazdaSpeed3 and MazdaSpeed6 takes it to a new level.
Disclaimer:I’m like 90% asleep and don’t feel like editing this or just waiting to post it in the morning so here, take it. It’s good enough
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 00:04, STARS: 5
A Speed3 Spee6 and Speed Miata would be awesome. He’ll make a Speed verision of everything but the Cx9. I’d be down for a Turbo AWD manual CX3
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:06, STARS: 4
You could argue from a sales perspective a MazdaSpeed CX-5 makes the most sense really.
"Wacko" (wacko--)
08/02/2017 at 00:11, STARS: 3
Mazdaspeed all the things.
"AkursedX" (akursedx)
08/02/2017 at 00:11, STARS: 3
I saw nothing about making an RX-9 and having a rotary-engine option for every platform.........Meh.
Yes, I’m insane.
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 00:13, STARS: 1
Basically #turboallthethings
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:14, STARS: 2
If I thought you could get a rotary to realistically pass emissions anymore/get better than 15 mpg/run for > 2,000 miles without needing its oil topped off I totally would’ve suggested it.
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 00:15, STARS: 1
I’m sure there’s more than a few people out there wanting a small 250-300hp AWD family CUV.
"R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet" (r-saldana)
08/02/2017 at 00:16, STARS: 0
^this
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:16, STARS: 0
It’d basically be a big “Fuck you” to the BMW X1
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 00:18, STARS: 0
Do they make an X1M because they should.
"MarquetteLa" (marquettela)
08/02/2017 at 00:20, STARS: 4
Bring back the Speeds.
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:21, STARS: 1
They don’t but they really should. Or to quote BMW’s sales chief last year, “There’s certainly a place for [an] X1M but we can’t confirm it”
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:22, STARS: 0
Also edited my post to MazdaSpeed most of the things.
"AkursedX" (akursedx)
08/02/2017 at 00:22, STARS: 1
You just described some of the most fun things about rotary-ownership!
Remember that thing where I said I was insane??
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 00:23, STARS: 1
Really all they have to do is make an X1 with an Andy kit, maybe lower it (lol) and ad like 10hp. BMW names done mean anything anyway.
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:23, STARS: 0
One of the best cars of all-time
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:27, STARS: 1
I mean it wouldn’t be a whole lot more than that in reality. They’d just carryover the 3.0TT from the M2 and most of its suspension
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 00:28, STARS: 0
Andy kit is supposed to say body kit.
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:29, STARS: 1
That makes way more sense
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
08/02/2017 at 00:30, STARS: 1
He said: All Mazda’s are good looking...
I said: Oh really?
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 00:32, STARS: 5
They don’t sell it in the US so it doesn’t exist in real life obviously.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
08/02/2017 at 00:57, STARS: 1
Here’s the thing... they’re using naturally aspirated engines everywhere but the CX-9, because in the real world, they actually get their claimed numbers . (Or, for Europe, they miss them by less than the turbocharged competition.) The CX-9 only has a turbo engine because the Ford 3.7 V6 isn’t available to them any more, and they don’t have a V6 on the SkyActiv architecture.
Mazda is extremely resistant to the “put a turbo on it” philosophy, and for their non-US markets, they have perfectly fine performance. Note that the 2.0 (although with more power due to higher octane fuel) is the performance Miata engine.
Oh, and crank horsepower isn’t everything, their drivetrains seem to have less loss, which gets the power to the wheels better. The 155 hp Mazda3 somehow keeps up with a 177 hp Elantra, IIRC, and the 155 hp Miata (which is actually a different tune of the engine, despite the same horsepower figure) manages to keep up with a 310 hp Mustang EcoBoost... in a straight line. (OK, less weight helps there , but still.)
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
08/02/2017 at 01:02, STARS: 0
Sounds reasonable...
"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich)
08/02/2017 at 01:47, STARS: 0
Don’t worry... they’re coming out with additional engine options... HCCI (Basically makes a gas engine behave more like a diesel), BEVs and hybrids!
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/01/mazdas-hcci-for-2018/
Also that 2.5L turbo will probably find its way into other vehicles.
"Nibbles" (nibbles)
08/02/2017 at 02:12, STARS: 0
I saw a herrafrush CX5 on I5 today
It didn’t look bad
Not good
But not bad
"pip bip - choose Corrour" (hhgttg69)
08/02/2017 at 05:48, STARS: 1
added practicality
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
08/02/2017 at 06:58, STARS: 0
Won’t fit, the X1's FWD-based now.
About the only way I could see an M-tier X1 happening now is if it’s based on the 225xe/Countryman S E ALL4, but with the i8 engine tune.
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 07:06, STARS: 0
Shit you’re right. I didn’t realize they switched it from the 2-series platform to that one
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 07:10, STARS: 0
Huh, it’ll be interesting to see the kind of performance they get out of those/how they keep costs down. Really cool concept thigh
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 07:28, STARS: 0
Ok so idk where I was pulling numbers from earlier, but the Elantra can be had in a 1.4T, 1.6T, or a 2.0L NA, the 1.6T makes like 200 HP and 190 torques. That’s the engine in the Elantra Sport, and it thrashes the Mazda to 60. The base Elantra with the 2.0L pretty much matches the Mazda 2.0L (the 3 does pull off sightly better fuel economy though)
C&D returned 5.5 sec to 60 for the EcoBoost and 6.1 sec for the MX5. The weight difference makes it a conversation but the EB Is still notably faster.
"hike" (hike15)
08/02/2017 at 07:39, STARS: 0
Mazda can achieve mid 30 mpg in their cars with nothing but a high compress n/a motor and a 6 speed transmission. And that’s real world based on experience and mid 30 mpg. Why can’t other automakers figure this out?
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 07:48, STARS: 1
Wait does this mean Mazda is the new Honda? For years while most companies were going with a bigger engine, or a turbo Honda focused on making a better more efficient engine, not just a one that sounded better in marketing.
Now it’s Mazda using very efficient, relatively small, Naturealy Asperated engines to eek out more MPGs.
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
08/02/2017 at 07:49, STARS: 0
I’d happily drive that. My wife would hate it,
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
08/02/2017 at 08:08, STARS: 0
Motor Trend must have gotten a bad one, because it was their results I was thinking of.
2016 Mustang EcoBoost manual: 0-60 in 6.3, 1/4 mile in 14.5 @ 98.0 mph: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2016/2016-ford-mustang-ecoboost-first-test-review/
2016 Miata Club manual: 0-60 in 6.0, 1/4 mile in 14.5 @ 93.9 mph: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/mazda/miata/2016/2016-mazda-mx-5-miata-club-review-verdict/
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
08/02/2017 at 08:25, STARS: 0
That’s pretty much it.
The strategy isn’t working well for the US, because they decided to optimize their engine architecture and platforms around 4-cylinders, so there’s no good way to make a high-power option (they did do the turbo 2.5 for the CX-9, but it’s not appeared in any other models). It looks especially bad on paper, but their emphasis on efficient transmissions helps their real-world performance, as does their emphasis on light weight (THAT, however, has caused NVH issues).
For the rest of the world, though, a 163 hp 2.0 is considered a hot engine for a normal car (higher octane being normal in Europe allows 163, instead of 155, hp) A lot of Mazda3s have the 2.0 detuned to 120 hp, even.
Mazda’s rather vehement about naturally aspirated engines being the way to go for real-world performance and lower cost, and they’ve been rewarded by European regulators rolling out the Real Driving Emissions test cycle. Most automakers have been caught flat-footed by this, with the implementation of RDE starting this year, right in the midst of some laggard automakers just now switching over to their downsized-and-turbocharged platforms.
The only ICE manufacturer other than Mazda to not be caught totally flat-footed by RDE is Toyota, and that’s mainly for two reasons - first, Toyota is one of the most reluctant automakers to change course (they have a 1.2T for Europe, but they’d rather sell you a 1.5, 1.6, or 1.8 NA engine, some of which are literally 20 year old designs (literally, the US Yaris, the Aqua/Prius c, and the Euro Yaris Hybrid use an engine family that dates back to late 1997)), and second, Toyota licensed some of the SkyActiv-G engine technology. (In fact, Toyota switched the European-market Yaris from a 1.33 liter naturally aspirated top engine (well, for the non-hybrid - the hybrid’s the top powertrain), to a 1.5 liter variant of the same engine, but with heavily Mazda-inspired VVT strategies and high compression added... and they explicitly cited RDE as the reason for the displacement increase. Oh, and as a sign of Toyota’s conservatism, this thing’s port-injected still.)
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
08/02/2017 at 08:33, STARS: 0
The CX-9 doesn’t sell well because it’s absolutely ghastly in person. WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY THINKING WHEN THEY GAVE THE GRILL LIP INJECTIONS?
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 09:30, STARS: 0
If you read their breakdown after the 0-60 time they mention that the 2015 they tested was 0.7 sec faster to 60 so they figured there was something up with that one.
"Khalbali" (khalbali2)
08/02/2017 at 11:03, STARS: 0
Cx-3 doesn’t get the 2.5 because it’s based on the 2 not the 3, so the 2.0 is actually already an upgrade over the 1.5. And as others have said, the drivetrain loss is a lot lower on mazdas so they’re faster than hp would indicate. And you seem to have forgot the diesel that’s supposed to actually come out this year in the cx5 gt. While all of your suggestions would be awesome, Mazda has a very limited budget compared to most brands since it’s not part of a larger group, so it just doesn’t make sense to work on speed models that would sell <1000/month until they grow the brand a bit. And I can definitely vouch the n/a engines matching the sticker in real world mpg, I had a 2015 Mazda3 2.0 with a stick that I flogged and still got over 40mpg at Denver altitude. On 85 octane.
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 11:37, STARS: 0
Ahh I didn’t know that little gem of a fact. A 2.0L Turbo still makes sense to me, even in a low-boost form.
As far as the whole “They have less drivetrain loss!” bit that keeps being thrown around, I’m calling BS. I’ll have to do more digging to be sure but I imagine if you lined up the torque curve from a Skyactiv engine against anyone else you’d see almost flat torque delivery (High compression ftw) vs the single peak on most turbo engines.
"Khalbali" (khalbali2)
08/02/2017 at 12:11, STARS: 0
Yeah of course the engines make power differently, but my old service advisor bought a 2.5 mazda3 with a stick that he planned to modify and use to drum up a little faux-mazdaspeed business for the shop. He dynoed it before any mods for a baseline and it made 187hp at the wheel, vs a claimed 184hp at the crank. Obviously the engine must be underrated but still, there’s not much loss there. Even if it’s actually a 200hp at the crank that’s still only 7.5% loss unless my math is worse than I thought.
"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/02/2017 at 12:56, STARS: 0
I’m not gonna try and speculate on a second hand dyno test on a dyno that I can’t verify the accuracy of, but taking a result like that and chalking it down to less drivetrain loss is a leap. It’s far more likely that Mazda either rates their engines quite conservatively or that the dyno results just weren’t that accurate.
AKA see the image below for something that completely contradicts that theory and shows a 2.0L Mazda 3 running at 135 wHP and 134 lb*ft, or about 15-16% loss. As close to average as possible.
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=586221
"MarquetteLa" (marquettela)
08/02/2017 at 13:37, STARS: 0
I’ve really been enjoying my time with it.
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
08/02/2017 at 18:43, STARS: 0
Agree. My preference is always cab chassis.
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
08/02/2017 at 18:45, STARS: 0
If you are in the US then you will get that opportunity as under that weird little frown is a Ford Ranger. Although you will be getting the next generation version and Mazda won’t as the next BT-50 will be made for Mazda by Isuzu off the next generation D-Max.