by "for Michigan" (formichigan)
Published 06/30/2017 at 16:15
by "for Michigan" (formichigan)
Published 06/30/2017 at 16:15
Tags: help
; wrenching
; suspension
; mazda3
STARS: 0
Been having a problem with my 06 Mazda3 for a while. The front end started shaking last Summer and I’ve been chasing the problem when time and money allowed since then.
ETA: Yes, I have hub centric rings on the new wheels. This was a problem when I was still running the stock wheels (Winter steelies match the stock hub bore).
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The front of the car shakes at speed. What that speed is varies. Sometimes the shake shows up around 25 mph, sometimes it isn’t noticeable until 60 mph. It’s not violent, but it’s rarely subtle.
The shake manifests in three ways simultaneously:
Steering wheel wobble. Like bad force-feedback throwing a gaming wheel back and forth. Frequency always builds with speed, but it doesn’t always start at the same speed. Sometimes it’s subtle at 25 mph and builds from there. Other times it absent until 55 mph and builds from there.
Vibration. The whole dash vibrates. Not visibly, but tangibly if I touch it. It does vibrate my dash-mounted phone visibly, though.
Noise. Not a great description, but more like a soft thud than a scraping noise. Frequency and volume increase with speed.
Again, none of this is violent, but it isn’t subtle.
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When the shake showed up initially, I was running Cooper Xeon RS3-S summer tires. Many of the reviews I read before I bought them said that as they wear they tend to go out of balance more quickly than most tires. By the time the shake showed up I was already 10K miles into the tires and on the wear bars, so I figured I’d just wait to replace them instead of bothering with getting them rebalanced.
As it was well into Autumn by that time and I was broke, I just swapped on my Blizzaks/steelies from the previous season and hoped that would solve the issue. While it seemed to at first, it didn’t take long for me to realize the shake was still there, though perhaps somehow muted by the heavier wheels and thicker sidewalls (205/55/16 on steel vs 205/50/17 on aluminum).
By the end of Winter, the front of the car shook violently when braking at highway speeds and I had nowhere to work on it, so I took it to a local shop. They quoted me way too much for four cheap rotors to replace my warped ones, but I payed them to do the work because I just wanted my car back. That smoothed out the brakes, but not the shake that probably caused my wacked out rotors in the first place.
Even though I explained to them that I had been through two sets of wheels/tires which had both been rotated at least once and the shake never changed, they insisted that my problem was out of balance wheels and tried to sell me new tires to smooth everything out. I passed on that and decided to stick it out until I could afford my recent wheel upgrade to go along with new summer tires.
As expected, despite brand new wheels and tires that were Hunter Road Force Balanced™ at the warehouse, the shake persists. Beyond that, my brand new brakes have developed a persistent squeak that keeps time with the shake and when the brakes are applied there’s a rhythmic grinding noise that shows up from around 10 mph down to a stop. That may or may not be related to the fact that the shop reused my old brake pads “because they have a lot of life in them”.
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My thought is that something is obviously not right in the front suspension. Whether it’s a bearing, bushing, or ball joint, something is loose and causing both the NVH issues and the funky brake wear.
That said, I’m not really sure where to start. I gave up halfway through replacing a ball joint once and that’s the extent on my experience with suspension work. What should I do, fellow Opponaughts?
In case you’re unfamiliar, my 3 has McPherson strut suspension up front, multi-link in the rear, and disc brakes all round.
"Aremmes" (aremmes)
06/30/2017 at 16:23, STARS: 0
What’s the condition of the drive shafts, tie rods, sway bar links, and ball joints?
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
06/30/2017 at 16:28, STARS: 0
To check for wheel bearings, jack up one (or both) of the front wheels up and try to move it around by hand. If you can tilt the wheel with your hands either up and down or side to side then it’s the wheel bearing or ball joint (Depending on the direction you can tilt the wheel, I think left/right is wheel bearing and up/down is ball joint.)
I think another possibility is one of your brake calipers, on one side, is seized so that’s it’s always engaged. But is only one side so you don’t feel the drag. Check to see if your brake pads are wearing evenly, and if not lube the slide pins and/or get new ones.
"Dave the car guy , still here" (a3dave)
06/30/2017 at 16:30, STARS: 0
My sister had both tie rod and control arm issues on hers so I’d look at those first.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
06/30/2017 at 16:33, STARS: 0
Jeeze this is a perplexing problem. Are you using the well hub centeralizers? I have the same car and certain wheels are hub-centric (like the mazda) and others are not. When I got some aftermarket wheels, they came with the hub centeralizers so the wheels sat centered on the hubs. Without the centralizers the wheels hopped at 50 mph +. With the centeralizers I have no issues. Otherwise I think it could be a lower engine mount, worn tie-rod ends or who knows.
FYI both my front shocks are blown and my car is still rolling smooth.
"razorbeamteam" (razorbeamteam)
06/30/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 0
My first thought was wheel bearings too, since they can cause a “not always bad” situation. The bad tires may have made them worse. How many miles on car?
"jimz" (jimz)
06/30/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 0
How many miles? Mazda struts are junk and will lose damping and probably be leaking by 80k. DC3's brake calipers suggestion is a good one too; that happened on my SRT4 but it wasn’t near as violent as you describe.
"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock)
06/30/2017 at 16:40, STARS: 0
Who the hell reuses brake pads when changing discs?!
"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock)
06/30/2017 at 16:40, STARS: 0
Who the hell reuses brake pads when changing discs?!
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 16:43, STARS: 0
Hubs the stock and steel wheels are the correct size. The new ones have hub rings to fill the gap.
All my engine mounts are new: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/installed-my-new-mount-today-1796195608#_ga=2.12375152.551717753.1498272386-1447882141.1486484010
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 16:45, STARS: 0
Just over 153k miles. No leaks, no excessive bouncing or anything. Handles like the struts are fine. Don’t know if they’ve even been replaced though, I bought the car with 125k miles on it.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 16:46, STARS: 0
I don’t know how to determine that.
"Klaus Schmoll" (klausschmoll)
06/30/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 0
Aftermarket wheels with a bigger center diameter than the hubs without those centering rings? 9 out of 10 times the lugnuts are enough to keep them center, but then they don’t make those rings without a reason.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 1
Hacks.
That was the last straw with that shop.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 16:49, STARS: 0
This problem persists with stock wheels, steel wheels with the same bore, and new wheels with hub rings. That’s not the issue.
"Klaus Schmoll" (klausschmoll)
06/30/2017 at 16:54, STARS: 0
Shit, that would have been such an easy solution. Best of luck!
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
06/30/2017 at 16:59, STARS: 0
idk
"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori)
06/30/2017 at 17:02, STARS: 0
In general getting under it, grabbing things and seeing if they move in a way they shouldn’t (heyo?) is a good way to check a lot of that stuff. If you have the time, binge watching some of the early Wheeler Dealers episodes might help. IIRC Ed does a lot of “this is how you find worn suspension parts” work.
It almost sounds akin to Jeep “death wobble” so it very well could be worn or out of geometry components in the front suspension.
Rotors don’t usually warp for no reason. Building a lot of heat in them (slowing from highway speeds or “spirited” driving) and then hitting a puddle or washing your car can do it. Also over-torquing wheel nuts will absolutely cause problems (though so will under-torquing... so be careful). Might be worth looking up common causes and making sure you haven’t done something to cause the new ones to warp.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 17:37, STARS: 0
Nothing that I’ve played with seems to move in ways it shouldn’t. The wheels don’t rock back and forth or up and down on the hubs. The control arms and struts seem pretty firm.
There is a rocking sensation in throttle transitions (letting off the throttle at speed or getting on-throttle from coasting). Perhaps a CV joint is going back?
I always torque my lug nuts to ~88 LB-FT, which is on the higher end of the service manual spec.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 19:03, STARS: 0
I’ve played with both wheels when I’ve had it up for wheel changes and/or the rotations and there doesn’t seem to be any noticeable slack.
The shop supposedly inspected, cleaned, and lubed also of the calipers when they changed the rotors. I’ve been meaning to get in and look at the calipers and pads, but I haven’t had the time.
"RacinBob" (racinbob)
06/30/2017 at 19:35, STARS: 0
I like the tie rod proposition. I had a similar shake on a FWD pontiac transport with similar miles. Nothing else is sounding promising.
One trick to try is jack up one side put it in gear (making sure it parking brake is on and somebody is at the wheel) and put it in gear and let it spin. If it doesn’t shake it’s not balance. Also at the same time look at the tread, if the tread does not roll straight and has a kick, there is a problem with the tire.
Ps, be careful with this, it’s effective but you don’t want to launch your car through the front of your garage.
"greasemonkey235097" (greasemonkey235097)
06/30/2017 at 19:52, STARS: 0
I too have an 06 mazda3 with a now diminished shaking, it was terrible due to broken lower left front control arm. the weld had broken on a welded nut inser at one end of the arm. Once changed, the shaking got less severe. I just keep bending the oem 17" wheels, NJ roads suck!
"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
06/30/2017 at 20:15, STARS: 0
Pull the brake rotors off and clean the hub mating surface well, do the same with the back of the rotors and the outside face of the rotors. Possibly a bit of corrosion or debris in between the rotors and hubs. If you have access to dial indicator you can check for runout with the rotors on the car. With the vibration starting at different speeds, I would think both sides are out of whack a bit and it depends on where the bad spots are and how they line up to cause the vibration at “x” speed.. of it were just one side, I would think the vibration would be at the same speed. The cheapest this to check for now is to rebalance the tires again, just to make sure those are squared away. But then you should still pull off the rotors to check for build up on any mating surfaces.
"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
06/30/2017 at 20:17, STARS: 0
With that mileage, you could also replace the hubs to eliminate those. Just don’t go cheap on those, Timkin, moog or better.
"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
06/30/2017 at 20:28, STARS: 0
Are you located near Troy Michigan by chance? I have access to a hoist and some decent runout gear that I’d be happy to help with finding the issue.
"brianbrannon" (brianbrannon)
06/30/2017 at 20:35, STARS: 0
does the car need to warm up before it happens? Touch each wheel hub carefully or use a thermometer to check for a hotter one. Bad wheel bearing or sticky caliper or collapsed brake line on that wheel
"diplodicus forgot his password" (diplodicusforgothispassword)
06/30/2017 at 20:56, STARS: 0
Have you looked at the motor mounts?
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 21:25, STARS: 0
They’re all new within the past two years/30k miles.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 21:27, STARS: 0
No warming up necessary.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 21:34, STARS: 0
I’m a couple of hours away in Ohio.
"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
06/30/2017 at 22:43, STARS: 0
Oh gotcha. Never mind then, unless you’ll be up this way over the weekend. I’m a Toledo native myself, but been up here in Sterling Heights since I got married over 10 years ago.
"wafflesnfalafel" (wafflesnfalafel1)
06/30/2017 at 22:46, STARS: 0
I’ve got an 09' and have had a couple related experiences. I had a set of Conti tires where at least one was out of round - hard to tell at first, vibration progressively got worse, disappeared after I swapped for a set of Michelins. The other more frequent situation is that it seems to be very sensitive to uneven tire pressure regardless of tire brand - even a half pound down in one of the tires, (especially the rears oddly enough,) will cause a minor vibration.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 23:24, STARS: 0
Thanks for the offer. I do make it back up there to visit family fairly often, but I’m staying home this weekend.
I’m a Metro Detroit native, but I’ve been down here since just before I graduated from high school. I never want to come back to Ohio after spending a weekend up there. Hopefully some day I won’t have to.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
06/30/2017 at 23:27, STARS: 0
I noticed that shortly after buying mine, so I’m pretty careful about maintaining tire pressure. This issue’s chased me through three different sets of wheels and tires, including several rotations of those sets.
"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori)
07/01/2017 at 09:39, STARS: 0
Interesting! Have you checked the transmission mount?
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
07/01/2017 at 09:56, STARS: 1
All three engine/trans mounts are new since I bought the car two years ago. The left mount is OEM, the right mount is a ROCA solid rubber replacement for the stock hydraulic mount, and the rear is a Focus ST mount .
I’ve even gone through and loosened all of them and then tightened them according to the service manual instructions. All in order and to the listed torque specs.
"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori)
07/01/2017 at 12:24, STARS: 0
Dude.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
07/01/2017 at 12:42, STARS: 0
I would, but I don’t want to break my monitor. lol
The two things most threads asking the same question seem to come back to are: 1) wheel bearings and 2) tie rods. So I’m probably just going to replace both and hope one of them solves the problem.