by "Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
Published 06/29/2017 at 20:05
by "Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
Published 06/29/2017 at 20:05
No Tags
STARS: 10
A friend from church comes over with his four-year-old son. The boy has a half-scale toy Winchester similar to this one. He points it in my face and makes a shooting noise.
“Don’t point that at me.”
“I told him it was okay,” says the dad, who is also a bigtime firearms guy.
“It’s not okay.”
Boy shoots me a second time, and I push the barrel away a second time and say, “Don’t shoot me!”
“I told him it’s okay.”
“It’s not okay,” I say, as the boy aims at me a third time and shoots me again.
This time I grab the end of the barrel and yell at him forcefully, “DO NOT POINT THAT AT ME!!”
“That really bothers you?” asks the father. “I told him it was okay.”
“It’s not okay with me,” I tell him.
Indulged little boy, dad who owns many guns and lots of ammo and I hope nobody ever gets killed because the boy can’t tell the difference between a toy gun and a real gun and a real gun that, for critical moment, is a toy in his four-year-old mind.
The dad invited me to participate with him in the fall in a competitive pistol shooting league and I now have serious doubts.
"CaptDale - is secretly British" (captdale)
06/29/2017 at 20:15, STARS: 2
That is a hard one. I agree that the child should respect people’s wishes and with a real looking toy gun they should not be pointed at people. Then you get to airsoft and nerf (which this child is too young to own) and then you start getting issues with them understanding the difference between toy and not toys and people who are playing your game and people who are not. Though at 4 I don’t think this child should have a toy gun and as a father this person shouldn’t either.
You thought I would go shooting with.
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
06/29/2017 at 20:17, STARS: 9
Good on you.
My Opinion: I grew up shooting and this kind of behavior would not have flown, even with a toy. I think “realistic” toy guns are an issue in general TBH.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
06/29/2017 at 20:23, STARS: 5
It’s never too early to teach gun safety. #1, dont point a gun at people. Practice with the toy gun. hopefully it’ll be so ingrained and habitual that if they ever have their hands an a real one (supervised or not) it’s less of a risk.
real basic stuff.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/29/2017 at 20:24, STARS: 7
There’s nothing hard about this. You don’t point guns at people, period.
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
06/29/2017 at 20:25, STARS: 7
Wait, so the guy’s a gun enthusiast? He of all people should know that that’s one of the basic rules of gun safety. Why not start the boy young with good habits?
Teaching kids not to point guns at people always seemed like more of a manners thing to me, but it’s something that you’re not really supposed to “grow out of”. Once one’s old enough to handle a real firearm, that practice transitions from a matter of respect to a matter of safety.
Besides, it’s not like you’re splitting hairs over trigger discipline.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/29/2017 at 20:25, STARS: 3
If it happens again, I will take the gun away from him and if he’s lucky, I won’t smash it.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/29/2017 at 20:26, STARS: 3
Exactly. And a four-year-old mind cannot distinguish what is toy and what is not. Daddy’s toys are cooler because they actually work!
"Nibby" (nibby68)
06/29/2017 at 20:26, STARS: 0
check out these guns
"sm70- why not Duesenberg?" (sm70-whynotduesenberg)
06/29/2017 at 20:27, STARS: 4
It may seem relatively harmless, but this is an irresponsible gun owner raising an irresponsible offspring. I’m not a gun-type in the slightest, but I can certainly respect those who keep most types of guns responsibly. One of the rules of responsible ownership that I think most gun owners will tell you is:
“Never point a firearm at anything unless you intend to destroy it.”
Clearly that is nothing of significance to this father if he is not only failing to teach it to his kid, but actively telling him it’s ok to think otherwise.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/29/2017 at 20:27, STARS: 0
Respect
?
"CaptDale - is secretly British" (captdale)
06/29/2017 at 20:28, STARS: 0
So you are not a fan of paintball, airsoft, and Nerf then?
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
06/29/2017 at 20:29, STARS: 2
Yeah, I mean, that’s what it seemed like to me, growing up. The rule about pointing guns (even toy ones) at others was made without explanation, and I assumed that it was because it was a rude thing to do. And that was good enough of a reason.
It wasn’t until later in life, during a gun safety course with real firearms, that it became about safety. The respect thing still applied, but real guns carry a much heavier responsibility. Anyway, that’s just my own experience, and I felt that it was logical.
"Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero" (sampsonite24)
06/29/2017 at 20:30, STARS: 2
My wife’s best friend taught his kid whether it’s a toy or not you don’t point it at anything you don’t intend to kill
"CB" (jrcb)
06/29/2017 at 20:42, STARS: 0
I nearly lost an eye to Nerf, so I’ll agree with O.C. on this one.
"Spridget" (dustbustervans)
06/29/2017 at 20:43, STARS: 5
My two cents: all of those are ok, but you need to teach your kids the difference and make sure they’re old enough to understand.
"just-a-scratch" (just-a-scratch)
06/29/2017 at 20:51, STARS: 0
This falls in a grey area. There are lots of toy guns that regularly are pointed at people, myself included. I have no idea how many times friends and I pretended to shoot each other or actually did with Nerf, spud, squirt, or other toy gun types. I do not have a great aversion to toy guns pointed at me.
Not stopping the kid after telling him you don’t like it, that is rude.
Only after I got older did the danger of a kid with a real looking toy gun seem dangerous. At a distance of more than a few feet it seems the kid has the real thing, even if you’re well versed in firearms. I shouldn’t have to explain how that can go bad.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/29/2017 at 20:56, STARS: 5
more than anything if you said its not okay once, then that should have been enough. That he let him do and told him it was okay to shoot you against your obvious wishes is not okay
"Jason Spears" (shadestalker)
06/29/2017 at 21:02, STARS: 1
“I told him it was okay.”
Don’t go shooting around someone who clearly doesn’t understand gun safety. No-brainer.
"Logansteno: Bought a VW?" (logansteno)
06/29/2017 at 21:07, STARS: 0
I’m more bothered by the fact that the dad decided not to stop his brat from doing something you asked him multiple to not do. My six-year-old cousin got his water gun crushed by me because he wouldn’t stop spraying me and seems to have an issue with stopping when he’s told, and my aunt hasn’t taught him jack shit in terms of discipline.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
06/29/2017 at 21:48, STARS: 1
thats poor trigger disapline. My grandfather and uncle were big hunters and growing up I had a toy rifle where I would play civil war. Yeah I was a history nerd. Then as I had shown I wasn’t a dumbass I got a bb gun and then later a 22 that I could keep at my grandparents. One of my biggest problems I don’t have a problem with responsible adults owning guns. I have a problem with morons owning guns.
Like this careless example why do you have a rifle out with a magazine. You’re either A) irresponsible, or b) a tacticool douche bro.
Over Momorial day weekend I was at a bbq when my cousins dumb ass friend showed up with his pistol in a holster. “dude put your gun away” “its my right, i need to defend my fmily”
“from who? how many people do you piss off on a day you need to carry?”
Then proceeds to pound 5 bud lights in 2 hours. Yes completely responsible.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
06/29/2017 at 21:53, STARS: 1
JFC. I don’t even shoot (my dad has a couple), and even I know that’s about the first thing you learn.
"Viggen" (viggen37)
06/29/2017 at 22:04, STARS: 1
I don’t know what pisses me off more: muzzle awareness or weapons not being on safe. Whether it was playing with a toy revolver as a child or airsoft/paintball gun as a teenager, or most recently, my M16 in the Army (miss that rifle!), the same thing always just naturally came to mind: muzzle awareness, weapon on safe, finger off trigger. Guess it doesn’t come to everyone, yet I grew up in a firearm free home (horrible!).
"gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee" (gogmorgo)
06/29/2017 at 22:12, STARS: 0
I agree with your sentiment entirely. I was in a boat today with one of our backcountry wardens. She had taken off her tool belt because it was really awkward with the boat seats. It slid off the seat when we hit another boat’s wake. I took no notice. I happened to glance down a few minutes later and discovered I was staring straight down the barrel of her flare gun. I very slowly reached down and pointed it somewhere other than my head. I don’t care it it’s a toy or otherwise not a weapon, I really do not like that feeling. And it’s definitely not okay.
"Maxima Speed" (maximaspeed)
06/29/2017 at 22:20, STARS: 0
The kid definitely should not have continued after you told him to stop, not to is just rude. That being said, my 3 brothers and I have played toy guns(cops and robbers, soldiers, cowboys and Indians) since we were little, even with our dad. However we were under no circumstances to even touch a real gun with out an adult present until we were around 12. That’s when I got my first one. Even then we were not get them out without permission. I think, with the proper discipline, the toy guns are a non-issue. I am now a licensed concealed carry holder, a hunter, and target shooter, and have always remained extremely safe with a gun. I disagree some what with the “four year old can’t tell the difference” thing IF, that’s a big if; the parents instill from a very early age the knowledge of what’s real and what isn’t. As my parents did.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
06/29/2017 at 23:11, STARS: 0
My 4 year old son got in trouble tonight because he said he’d shoot me in the face. (he’s very in to good guys and bad guys and their battles right now). Even saying it is definitely not ok.
I’m allowing nerf guns to be shot at people because they’re clearly not anything similar to real guns, but I’m also not allowing my son to fire a real gun until I’m sure he’ll listen to me exactly on a range.
"AdverseMartyr" (ewilliamson)
06/29/2017 at 23:30, STARS: 0
Since you aren’t playing guns with him I understand. If you were playing guns with him then it would be a bit difficult if you never allowed him to shoot you or you shoot him. Though it would look like most movies.
"TheBimmerGuyWhoNowOwnsAChevy" (thebimmerguy)
06/30/2017 at 02:27, STARS: 1
If a gun owner tells their kid it’s okay to point toy guns at people, I don’t want to associate with that person. Maybe it’s because my dad was a marine but I was told never to point a gun, real or fake, at any living thing I didn’t want to shoot.
"Frenchlicker" (frenchlicker)
06/30/2017 at 07:26, STARS: 1
You’re being pedantic in this one. I have military buddy that has confirmed kills yet has never pointed a gun at me. They seem to understand obvious differences in things.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 09:54, STARS: 1
Yes, all of that.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 09:56, STARS: 0
I attended a Nerf parlor just last weekend and spent an hour being frustrated by Nerf guns that I couldn’t get to fire twice in a row... I’ll respond to Dale above.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:01, STARS: 1
Good morning Dale, I came in a little hot yesterday. Apologies.
There’s a fat layer in all of this of overindulged child who knows no boundaries and of abject rudeness that transcends the incident itself. Mrs. O.C. and I agree that my making a stand doubtless made an impression on the dad, who is a friendly and caring man.
Only last weekend I spent 90 minutes in a Nerf parlor with ttyymmnn and the spawn of ttyymmnn, running around and sweating and shooting at each other with Nerf guns — when I could get one to actually function consistently — and while I can’t say I’m a fan , I’m certainly not a detractor. Nerf, paintball, these are certainly opportunities to play out gun shooting combat fantasies and are appropriate. More so, I would say, than first-person shooting games on the computer. At least you get some cardio doing these.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:05, STARS: 1
Good morning Urambo, I apologize for coming in hot with my reply yesterday; yes, respect.
In this particular case, it’s about a child who has zero boundaries in his life and the manner in which he showed his lack of boundaries also happened to be spectacularly death-inducing.
Like you, as a child, I was inculcated with the idea of never pointing a gun at anyone and like you, I always saw it as more of a politeness thing than a safety thing. My parents were not gun people; quite the opposite. This father
is
a gun person and gets a double fail, with prejudice.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:05, STARS: 0
Well put.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:07, STARS: 0
It was beyond rude. And the dad is a firearms guy. Mrs. O.C. thinks I made a lasting impression on the dad who, for the record, is an extremely generous and caring man and friend.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:07, STARS: 0
And thrice. Agreed.
What’s more, Pops is a firearms guy and actually gifted me my first firearm.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:09, STARS: 0
Yes, it’s troubling.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:10, STARS: 0
Yeah, kind of that, too. We were definitely approaching a yank-it-out-of-Junior’s-hand moment.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:16, STARS: 0
Pretty much, though I think a L&L AR-15 makes a great table lamp.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:18, STARS: 0
Muzzle awareness . I’ll be using that term moving forward.
It takes awareness and thoughtfulness to operate any apparatus safely and efficiently. Those that are purpose built to kill, especially.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:20, STARS: 1
And we have to surrender our politeness for the sake of our safety, as a result of their lack of consideration.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:23, STARS: 1
Good points, all. As a teacher, I have worked with young children and I have seen firsthand how their minds flow between reality and fantasy and this kid is still pretty young. Still, in your circumstance, there was a bunch of active thinking and discourse which helped you develop into a thoughtful and considerate adult. That was lacking here and had the added layer of the entire firearm responsibility thing.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:28, STARS: 0
Nerf guns are so over-the-top in their appearance that they are in a different category from the sort of toy that I placed in my original post. At least in my opinion...
And I would ask, toy firearms aside, if you were visiting a friend and had your four-year-old along and your child did something that your friend felt strongly enough about to openly express his displeasure, wouldn’t you have shown the consideration to your friend of helping your son stop whatever he was doing? Even if you didn’t happen to agree? (Actually, that may come across as a bit judgmental. Apologies if it does.)
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
06/30/2017 at 10:29, STARS: 0
Hey, no worries. I didn’t think your reply was inappropriate at all. To be fair, respect does seem like such a weak reason when actual safety is on the table, so I felt the need to explain myself a little better.
I think the finer points of gun safety are a bit too advanced for four-year olds, who typically are more receptive to plain rules than logical reasoning. BTW, I really didn’t mean to downplay trigger discipline. It’s important, but perhaps a little too much for such a young kid.
What surprises me is that it sounds like the father here, a gun enthusiast , doesn’t seem to be teaching his son how to handle guns properly. I should think that enthusiasts of any variety would be eager to pass on their hobby to their offspring, and raise them with good habits and technique. Sure, the boy’s probably still too young for a lot of that stuff, but not the pointing rule. The pointing rule is like the ONE thing that he should be totally on top of.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:30, STARS: 0
A good point. No, we are standing in my driveway and he is shooting me for the third time after I’ve asked him to stop.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:31, STARS: 0
Yes. I’m kind of there right now. Funny thing is, long before this friend had this child, this friend gifted my my first firearm, a .357 mag S&W revolver.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:39, STARS: 1
I like how you put your first paragraph in this reply. Well said.
In the course of this thread, I learned a new term:
muzzle awareness
. It’s an excellent term that I will be using in the future. Just a week or so ago I was at my friend’s business where he keeps a loaded handgun in his office in a safe that reads his finger print when he wants to open the safe. I said something to him several times about noticing where he was pointing the gun and at one point, at three feet distance, he made a motion with the gun where the arc of the muzzle drew a line right across my chest. At that point the weapon was loaded and cocked and there was a round in the chamber. Safety was on and his finger was not on the trigger, but not acceptable.
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
06/30/2017 at 10:44, STARS: 1
Ah, so there is a term for that! Nice, I’m gonna start using that too.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
06/30/2017 at 10:48, STARS: 0
if you were visiting a friend and had your four-year-old along and your
child did something that your friend felt strongly enough about to
openly express his displeasure, wouldn’t you have shown the
consideration to your friend of helping your son stop whatever he was
doing? Even if you didn’t happen to agree?
Absolutely I would explain it to my 4 year old and try to get him to stop, doubly so if I was at a friend’s house instead of my own. (My mom doesn’t even like the kids to spin and get dizzy at her house, something I let the kids do all the time at our house.)
If nothing else, it’s a respect thing. I’d give the kid a pass, he might not realize when a “no” is a playful one or a strict one, but the kid’s dad should know and should explain it to the kid instead of trying to argue.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 10:55, STARS: 0
Thank you for being a thoughtful dad.
"CaptDale - is secretly British" (captdale)
06/30/2017 at 11:18, STARS: 0
No apology needed, but thank you. I didn’t think you were coming in too hot, hard to judge tone on the interwebs so I always assume nice tone before mad.
Anyhow, I agree. I enjoy paintball and such cause it is fun to run around and engage with friends and stuff, but yes people need to know the difference. Plus its a good setting to practice barrel and trigger control.
"CaptDale - is secretly British" (captdale)
06/30/2017 at 11:23, STARS: 0
Wholeheartedly agree
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
06/30/2017 at 11:28, STARS: 1
Muzzle awareness
. I learned that term in this thread and I like it.
"CaptDale - is secretly British" (captdale)
06/30/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 1
That’s the term I was trying to think of when I said barrel control.
"Pickup_man" (zekeh)
06/30/2017 at 13:04, STARS: 0
My dad was always super strict with this rule, and I plan to be just the same. Until we were old enough to fully %100 understand the difference between real guns and toy guns even Nerf guns and squirt guns shouldn’t have been pointed at people.
"Pickup_man" (zekeh)
06/30/2017 at 13:07, STARS: 0
My dads solution was to just not let us play guns until we were old enough to fully understand the difference, even Nerf guns and squirt guns were not to be pointed at people until we understood the difference. I was always confused by that but looking back I’m glad he was that strict, I’m better for it, and I plan on being the same when I have kids.
"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
07/03/2017 at 10:59, STARS: 0
I think I would have grabbed it and thrown it away, then again, I don’t really like kids, and even less so if they ignore my requests twice.
That might have escalated the situation also.
As for the father: Telling a kid it’s okay to point a gun at somebody (real or fake) is not okay at all. pointing a gun at somebody without the intent of shooting it is what gets you shot.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
07/03/2017 at 11:01, STARS: 0
Or gets someone shot accidentally.
Muzzle awareness
. Pops is missing a prime opportunity to teach Junior about that. May I ask what is your age?
"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
07/03/2017 at 11:06, STARS: 0
I’m 30, but living in France, so only police and military are allowed to carry guns. So that might be why I’m pretty conservative regarding guns. Well, the other conservative, as in: only responsible and trained people should be allowed to carry them.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
07/03/2017 at 11:08, STARS: 0
And if you are raising a child and you own guns, well, the rest of the sentence should be obvious.
"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
07/03/2017 at 11:22, STARS: 0
I cringe everytime I hear a story of “accidental discharge” when a kid pulled the trigger on a family member or friend or her/himself.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
07/03/2017 at 11:30, STARS: 0
Pretty much.
"6691 zapS" (6691-zaps)
07/06/2017 at 19:47, STARS: 0
Sorry, those are not meant to kill.Unless your talking Hunting rifle. Most are meant to kill animals or to stop a Human from being a threat.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
07/06/2017 at 20:21, STARS: 0
By killing them. You don’t draw the firearm unless you are prepared to use it for its intended purpose, which is to apply deadly force.
"6691 zapS" (6691-zaps)
07/08/2017 at 08:44, STARS: 0
Pistolas are under powered.
That was my point.
Unless your packing a .357 sig or bigger in auto or or a 357 or bigger in revolver.
Its to get the Deadly threat to stop.(If as a result he dies that is acceptable By law.)
Just like when there was a Bank robbery in Miami and the bad guys got shot a couple times and still killed some good guys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Unless your packing a .357 sig or bigger in auto or or a 357 or bigger in revolver.
Handgun is better then nothing. Plus most civilians can only carry pistols concealed.
But You are correct never point a gun at something or someone you don’t want to shoot.
If your friend asks you to stop your child from doing something maybe the child can stop for however long you are around your friend. Or maybe don’t bring your child with you when you see your friend.