by "HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
Published 06/21/2017 at 15:12
by "HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
Published 06/21/2017 at 15:12
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STARS: 2
An F16 and and Su-27 got uncomfortably comfortable today and it was caught on video.
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The Russian channels are claiming this was an unessicary provation over international waters.
NATO is claiming that the Jet and its 2 fighter escorts refused to squawk to ATC for its course or identity and that jets were scrambled as SOP.
Chalk this one up as another overblown incident that means little in reality but has big political implications.
Also, holy hell those comments in the RT video!
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Man alive.
NOTE: Personally I think the US is at fault in provocations as much or more than Russia is so I think to characteris this and similar incidents as “they shouldn’t have been there!” or “I can’t believe them!” Well I can, and we’re similiarly provacative so there is no reason to pretend we aren’t.
Im not saying Russia is innocent, Im saying this “us vs them” attitude towards this whole thing (or as I like to call it - The Terrel Jermaine Star effect) is less than helpful.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
06/21/2017 at 15:27, STARS: 1
So why are they playing games int he sky like this? Is this just a dick swinging contest? It seems like the consequences of an air to air collision are escalated if they keep this kind of crap going.
"TheRealBicycleBuck" (therealbicyclebuck)
06/21/2017 at 15:29, STARS: 1
If there were intentions of shooting someone down, it would happen from miles away, not right next to them. This is all just posturing.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:30, STARS: 0
This has been going to forever. Its very much “not backing down” in the face of the enemy. i.e. dick waggling.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:31, STARS: 1
From what I’ve read, this is just the same ol’ “keeping tabs” on each other that can get countries into a lot of trouble. Its a high risk game of “im not touching you!”
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
06/21/2017 at 15:31, STARS: 2
I miss Rogoway. I read the War Zone, but the commenting just isn’t the same when it’s out of the Kinjaverse.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:33, STARS: 1
I also miss Tyler. TJS is about the worst, though some of the others on FA are getting better.
"Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever" (rustanddust)
06/21/2017 at 15:34, STARS: 5
Eh, may not be overblown, pending on your perspective.
Seems it was a Polish F16 that intercepted (acting on behalf of NATO, not as an independent state), and quite frankly, there’s been no love lost between the Poles and the Russians over the past 500 years or so (one of the first major steps at reconciliation between the two was immediately fucked up by the Smolensk tragedy). I was in Poland when the Russians practiced a simulated nuclear attack and invasion of Poland. The Poles were not happy. It’s well known Poland has been invaded by the Russians before, and Poland has been on edge and highly supportive of Ukraine after the “annexing” of Crimea and the “not an invasion” of eastern Ukraine.
If the Russian party (transport and pair of SUs) didn’t respond to ATC, it’s absolutely NATO’s job to send someone up to say “hi”.
You’re 100% correct on the provocations. We fly and sail in international airspace/waters near their assets, as they do ours (completely legal for everyone), and both sides intercept (also legal). We’ve played these “cat and mouse” games for years, it just fits the current media narrative (Cold War 2.0) to publicize these incidents more as of late.
"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
06/21/2017 at 15:36, STARS: 1
The only reasons why this is news is because the US shot another plane down a few days ago (for good reason, mind you) and people are going to pretend to be scared or something. It’s not fair or right but yeah, this maybe didn’t help the situation.
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
06/21/2017 at 15:36, STARS: 3
Agreed, I don’t know if Patrick whiffed when he hired him, or if that’s what he was going for (maybe he’ll chime in and set me straight).
I’m far from a Trump fan, but I liked FA for the relatively dispassionate military insight, not the bandwagon Trump-shitting.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:37, STARS: 0
Thanks for the perspective. I saw overblown only in the sense that its occurance and meaning are blown way our of proportion when compared to what actually likely happened. I mean its not like an F16 came up to shoot down the ministers jet and was repelled.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:39, STARS: 4
Thing is...this happens all the time. The Russians do it all the time. “not helping” or not its going to happen. Russia pretending its a rare and dangerous provocation is just as disingenuous as it is to say that the US is totally innocent in these matters generally.
"You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much" (youcantellafinn)
06/21/2017 at 15:46, STARS: 3
Though you can’t see any national markings on the Viper in the video footage, it is likely an F-16C Block 52+ from the Polish Air Force. On May 2, 2017, Poland and Spain took responsibility for the alliance’s rotating Baltic Air Policing mission.
I’m curious how you can imply that the U.S. is at fault for this incident they appear to not be involved in.
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
06/21/2017 at 15:47, STARS: 0
Interesting, I was precisely wondering whose country that F-16 was, and imagining it could very well be Polish.
Even though for all intents and purposes identifiying the aircraft just as “NATO” is perfectly correct, it seemed to me that everybody (starting with the Russians themselves) were exquisitely trying to avoid being more precise.
Given their long-standing “friendship”, it is perfectly understandable they wanted to leave it there.
"TheRealBicycleBuck" (therealbicyclebuck)
06/21/2017 at 15:50, STARS: 0
If they would just say something along the lines of “yes, filthy Americans, this plane is carrying a diplomat and you should maintain a respectable distance from your superiors!” Then they would be less inclined to peek in each others’ windows at 250 mph.
"user314" (user314)
06/21/2017 at 15:50, STARS: 2
Eh, just a little communicating. Keeping up foreign relations, y’know.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:51, STARS: 0
Cause its better TV
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:51, STARS: 0
pretty much. I don’t think the Russians were at all opposed to this media opportunity.
"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
06/21/2017 at 15:51, STARS: 0
I know it happens all the time. But I am willing to entertain the idea that a US jet shooting down an enemy jet, while justified and allowed, is being seen as opening up the skies as a theatre of war, and these events might actually have consequences in the near future besides the usual “Your fighter tailed our cargo plane so we’re gonna skirt your border with our subs” games.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:53, STARS: 2
I hear ya. Frankly I think the Russians are looking for any excuse they can get to goad the media.
"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
06/21/2017 at 15:54, STARS: 0
To put it another way - I’m with you on the idea that this is a politically motivated bit of anger and hopefully in the long run it is just the same as it’s always been, but I think it’s foolish to dismiss it completely as some people are already doing. Things might’ve changed in the past week. It remains to be seen what will happen.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 15:59, STARS: 0
I think it should be dismissed. The Russians desperately want this to have more play but are happy to burry when their jets get the same treatment. The downing of a syrian fighter is just a red herring.
"Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever" (rustanddust)
06/21/2017 at 16:00, STARS: 2
Yeah, alot of intercepts have been getting click-bait type titles recently (then again, what doesn’t in this day and age).
Just doing a bit of digging, seems there was upwards of 300 scrambled NATO intercepts of Russian fighters/bombers/strategic aircraft (fuel tankers, surveillance, command/control) in 2013 alone. They poke NATO nations and look for the soft spots, and we do the same. They’ll fly at us, we’ll scramble fighters, they’ll turn and burn back home. Earlier this month (also over the Baltic), one very brave and lonely SU-27 flew into a formation of two B-1B’s, a B-52, a P8, a pair of USAF F16s, a pair of Polish F16s, and a pair of German Eurofighters (a pretty intimidating group). The NATO grouping didn’t even break formation. I assumed the contingent of six NATO fighters would have quickly let the SU know he was in an exceptionally unfavorable position, but we just ignored him. His transponder was on, so he was easily identified. The SU cut back and forth across the formation, tailed the B52 for a minute, and broke off back home.
It almost reminds me of having a couple young kids in the back seat of a car on a road trip. One will edge closer to the other, push things closer to the other, until the other snaps back. Except we’re playing this game with multi-million dollar lethal weapons, not Matchbox cars and GameBoys in the back of an Oldsmobile.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
06/21/2017 at 16:04, STARS: 1
exactly my thinking this is nuclear “Im not touching you!”
"Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever" (rustanddust)
06/21/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 0
If what I’ve read is correct , Poland and Spain are on the rotation for NATO Baltic cover right now, and Spain is flying Hornets, not F16s.
Fun fact: during Soviet times in Poland, kids sometimes went to “military” summer camp. A good friend of mine knew how to break down, clean, and reassemble a Kalashnikov, and could drop to a proper prone firing position in a heartbeat. She was 9 when the Soviet Union fell (they taught ‘em early).
"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
06/21/2017 at 16:24, STARS: 0
And I just saw the news that yes, the russian planes didn’t respond to calls so the F-16 dispatch was very much S.S.D.D. I’m 100% on board with “not news, don’t care”.
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
06/21/2017 at 16:27, STARS: 0
Exactly. I imagine the Polish AF wouldn’t want to miss the chance to unsettle the Russians a little.
I have the impression that whenever we hear about QRA in the Baltic airspace the nationality of the intercepting aircraft is always given as a matter of course. Not this time.
“Interesting” anecdote! The West certainly was never able to match Warsaw Pact preparedness, at least within the land forces. I remember reading a long time ago that the GDR’s Volksarmee was able to put his mechanised and armoured units “on the road” in 45 minutes or less.
I found that in
The Economist,
so I don’t suspect it was “red propaganda”.
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
06/21/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 0
What TheWarZone says is indeed correct. Next rotation will be in September:
https://www.ac.nato.int/archive/2017/poland-new-lead-nation-in-nato-baltic-air-policing-
"Frank Grimes" (FrankGrimes)
06/21/2017 at 18:56, STARS: 0
I wish jets had horns because if I was a pilot I would try to race russians.
"Jetstreamer" (jetstreamer)
06/21/2017 at 21:45, STARS: 0
For some more perspective, that airspace is fairly busy with traffic coming from Western Europe to the Baltics, traffic between Scandinavia and the Baltics and traffic from Southern Europe to Scandinavia, Baltics and Helsinki...
Traffic refusing to squawk and communicate with ATC is a danger to everyone else around there and a headache for the controllers. I fly around there myself all the time and have been held at lower flight levels due to ‘unidentified traffic’ for long periods of time, increasing our fuel burn and flight time, reducing our safety margins etc. It’s just a pain in the fucking ass and there is no point assigning the same or more blame to the US or NATO for this. Their air traffic is basically always in communication with ATC and coordinated so as not to interfere with commercial traffic 99% of the time.
Russians, just fucking talk to ATC. You are welcome to fly between everybody else, but just communicate like you actually want to be part of the rest of the world.
"For Sweden" (rallybeetle)
06/22/2017 at 00:04, STARS: 0
Is it too late to bring Boris Yeltsin back from the dead?