by "BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
Published 06/10/2017 at 17:46
by "BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
Published 06/10/2017 at 17:46
Tags: RWD
; Sedan
; BMW
; BMW M3
; Mazda
STARS: 2
At the end of the day, we’re all a little bit David Tracy. We have a hammer. We see everything else as a nail.
Arrivederci posed a question a few days ago about the best car to replace his BRZ at a couple different price points.
Especially since one of his requirements was 4+ doors, my hammer came up.
No, not my giant old framing hammer. The figurative one.
In its day the E36 M3 wasn’t extolled as a particularly light car, but in hindsight I can’t think of a lighter RWD sedan built in the last twenty years (most sources claim 3175 lbs, sedan or coupe).
Maybe an RX-8, which is 60-100 lbs lighter - but I’m not totally sold on counting it as a “sedan.”
Anyone have any other suggestions?
"EL_ULY" (uly)
06/10/2017 at 17:53, STARS: 2
E36 318i ?
"BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
06/10/2017 at 18:01, STARS: 0
You joker! But seriously, is an E36 the lightest RWD sedan out there? I can’t think of anything lighter.
And hell yes, a 318 would be lighter than an RX8 by a decent amount at 2900 lbs.
"RT" (rt-p)
06/10/2017 at 18:14, STARS: 0
I can find lighter than the E36 in the last 20 years…
Some versions of the original Toyota Altezza/Lexus IS weigh around 3,000lbs.
Take the Nissan Skyline R33, a little less than 3,000lbs in most RWD trims.
And the Lada Riva takes the cake at ~2100lbs.
I’ll dig up my 1997 Autokatalog and search for more. :/
"RT" (rt-p)
06/10/2017 at 18:29, STARS: 0
Welp, can’t find any others apart from more iron curtain cars and licensed built versions of older models (e.g: Beetle, 124, 504 etc).
"MM54" (mm54mk2)
06/10/2017 at 18:58, STARS: 0
This is yet another reason I need a Riva in my life
"arl" (arl1968)
06/10/2017 at 19:41, STARS: 0
I thought a 128i manual would be lighter, but it comes in at 3250lbs. Hmmm.
"notsomethingstructural" (notsomethingstructural)
06/10/2017 at 20:29, STARS: 0
the rx-8 is the lightest because the body is made of tin foil
"BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
06/10/2017 at 20:42, STARS: 0
I knew the IS was close, but the IS300 is a little more - like 3250, and seeing as we didn’t get the 200 in the US I didn’t check the weight on it.
I’m also blown away the Skyline was that light in RWD form - not that we got ANY of the Skylines in the US.
Still, aside from the Niva, an E36 is right there with the best you can do globally, and especially in the US.
"BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
06/10/2017 at 20:44, STARS: 0
Are you saying it’s not something structural?
"RT" (rt-p)
06/10/2017 at 21:25, STARS: 1
IS200 is 3000lbs btw, I checked the weight figures on multiple sources.
Overall it depends on your definition of a sedan, what country you’re in, and if you care about it being 20 years old - even changing the boundary to just 25 years would unlock loads more cars (and the E36 barely fits in the 20 year old catergory anyway) .
You’re still right though, the E36 is well loved for a reason, I’m hoping people will still keep these cars on the roads and take care of them. :)
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
06/10/2017 at 22:02, STARS: 1
I think you’re right that it’s the E36. The W202's were actually pretty similar. I know people think of MB’s as bank vaults compared to Bimmers, but a C220 was around 3150 lb and a C280 was under 3400. Volvo 900-series cars were in the same range too. A couple other interesting things to throw in there:
If we count crossovers, RWD Jeep XJ’s were made all the way up 2001 were under 3000 lb. to start and even with 4WD and an auto only went up 3350 or so.
Expand to AWD and you’ll see late ‘90's Subaru Imprezas and Legacy’s all over the 2700 to 3000 lb. range.
"notsomethingstructural" (notsomethingstructural)
06/10/2017 at 22:14, STARS: 1
ZING.
But seriously I might not want people leaning on my cars, but the rx8 is the only one I’ll ask them to stop because it leaves dents
"EL_ULY" (uly)
06/10/2017 at 22:36, STARS: 0
Oh dang, that’s what my little E85 weighs. I had a e36 325i sedan and an e36 M3. I honestly felt the 325i to be way more nimble. I could chunk it into any corner in that thing all day compared to the M3. Maybe it was the lower front caster spec.
"BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
06/10/2017 at 23:21, STARS: 0
Larger / wider tires aren’t always better for fun and / or balance (see the GT86 twins), and I’m sure the 325 had that going for it.
Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to find the 325 didn’t have staggered tires like the M3s came with, which would have made a night and day difference there.
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
06/13/2017 at 05:32, STARS: 1
Japan should be able to win this over those filthy fat Germans. But so many were FWD by 1997 :(. The light cars were based on economy cars, so they had reason to go FWD
"BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
06/13/2017 at 12:13, STARS: 0
Yes, there are LOTS of lighter FWD vehicles, some of which are AWD platforms that are also lighter than any RWD platform.
But RWD is the issue here, and BMW has always been fairly mass efficient. Yes, there were lighter RWD cars than the E30, but they were a bit of a wet noodle on track.
And by the time the E36 rolled around, there really weren’t any lighter RWD sedans. Even the IS300, which came out at the very end of the E36 run in 1998, was as heavy as an E46 - and I think that was probably about the best you could do given crash regs at the time.
By the mid nineties, there were no longer RWD economy cars - everything economy had gone FWD because of the additional weight savings, and everything that remained RWD was engineered to be fairly sporty, adding at least a couple pounds to the cars.
I wouldn’t praise the Japanese too much - Japanese sports cars were all significantly heavier than an M3, 911, or Corvette, with the lone (and remarkable) exception of the RX7. But it’s no surprise the RX7 and Corvette were the lightest by a significant margin - they didn’t have back seats. And none of these were sedans.
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
06/13/2017 at 19:11, STARS: 0
I wouldn’t say the RWD cars were too heavy for being sporty. In Japan at least, there were plenty of RWD cars. But they were coupes not sedans. The RWD sedans that remained were the big ones - Toyota Crown, Lexus LS, Nissan Cef/Ced/Cima. Cars that were so big and powerful, they didn’t need the space and RWD made some sense.
I take issue with that! I like the Japanese though. The MR2s were all light, as was the RX and the S13/14/15 family. The bigger cars fell victim to big, complicated, turbocharged powertrains, 4 seats and tricks like AWS/AWD.
It’s weird. I never thought of BMW as being light. These days I’d say it’s not true - the 3/4 is a big heavy car, and the smaller 1/2 doesn’t seem to be much lighter.
"BLCKSTRM" (BLCKSTRM)
06/13/2017 at 22:52, STARS: 0
BMWs ARE light, though. Compare the weight of a similar Mercedes or Audi, and they’re significantly lighter.
Luxury features add weight no matter who you are. Of course economy cars are lighter - they have fewer airbags, fewer doodads, smaller wheels, no sunroof, manual windows, etc. But I looked up the weight of several cars as I’ve had discussions in this thread. Mk3 Supras weighed as much as 4,000 lbs because of extra equipment. But even the lightest weights listed were more you’d expect - and that’s for a Mk3. Mk4 weighed even more, though they didn’t top out so heavy.
And I like MR2s as much as the next guy, but they’re like Miatas - not really in the same league as the heavy hitters.
It is definitely a more complicated thing if we get into coupes. But if you’re looking for four doors, the E36 is the lightest option without going back to something that originally went on sale in the eighties.
"glemon" (glemon)
11/30/2017 at 01:45, STARS: 0
Late to the party but great topic, and proud to report that I own one of the cars in the conversation, an IS300, when I bought it I dug out my old car magazines and looked at contemporary tests. As I recall the contemporary 3 series weighed a little less than the IS.
How do you get published or live on this station? I write a couple things including this http://glemon.kinja.com/i-have-officially-become-an-old-man-i-remember-30-year-1676248397 sort of on the same topic thing.