by "Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
Published 06/09/2017 at 09:00
by "Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
Published 06/09/2017 at 09:00
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STARS: 0
Are sedans becoming less relevant? If you are a run of the mill non-car person, are sedans becoming a less and less likely option? I mean for a practical do-it-all kind of vehicle, they are perhaps the least useful.
hatch-back: practical rear cargo area, efficient
wagon: large rear cargo area
crossover: hauls family, cargo, easy to get in and out of, can still have great economy
SUV: for people that need a crossover, but don’t care about fuel economy AND/OR for people that need to tow
Truck: can do work-stuffs
So sedans slot between hatch-back and wagon, but really have the benefits of neither. The can probably get very close in efficiency of a hatch back. But other than that, do they have a THING? Besides the advantage of being the classic go-to car-shape that a child would draw when asked to draw “car”.
I personally love sedans! But, if you take our passion for the automotive out of the equation, how often would you land on sedan for your next practical car choice?
"Nibby" (nibby68)
06/09/2017 at 09:06, STARS: 2
"Honeybunchesofgoats" (honeybunche0fgoats)
06/09/2017 at 09:10, STARS: 2
I feel like car makers are ruining sedans themselves. I’m a diehard lover of sedans, but considering how practically every sedan on the market as a trunk that’s nearly level with the roofline, I can’t find a compelling reason to choose one over wagons, crossovers, etc.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 09:10, STARS: 0
Well, I suppose that’s an argument for sedan. The kind of car one gets when one has a driver.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
06/09/2017 at 09:17, STARS: 1
Crew cab trucks are the new sedan. When we could get huge boats of sedan with loads of space inside them and enormous trunks, they were relevant. Cars have gotten smaller, peoples needs (or perceived needs) for space haven’t—in fact they’ve probably grown. So if you can’t get the space in a sedan... a hatchback makes more efficient use of its footprint. Alternately, crew cab trucks provide everything you got in old-school sedans—power, space, large cargo area—but better (hose-out trunk ftw!). The extra height is a non-factor. A main selling feature of CUV’s appears to be ride height fwiw.
So the sedan, unless a high-end RWD full-size, is largely pointless. They don’t have the either the practicality or enthusiast credentials.
As a side note, my parents say that when they had a wagon, the kids fought. When they bought a van, all was quiet on the western front--
we could see out!
Ride height and elevated seating is a good thing for kids apparently.
"Ssfancyfresh" (scotttt)
06/09/2017 at 09:39, STARS: 0
I have an A4 sedan. It’s what I wanted, but now I want a much larger sedan.
Rode in a Honda CRV yesterday. I can understand the appeal. Compact footprint with a huge roomy interior. It was nice.
Compact/ midsize sedans are becoming less and less relevant. They cost as much as a basic crossover and offer less utility. There isn’t as much of a fuel economy penalty between a small crossover and a midsize sedan.
I do like that the new Regal and A5 have hatchbacks. I think that’s a fair compromise. I would have bought one of those if they were available at the time.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
06/09/2017 at 09:41, STARS: 3
Modern sedans are so tall and fastbacked you may as well get a wagon/crossover.
"haveacarortwoorthree2" (haveacarortwoorthree2)
06/09/2017 at 09:43, STARS: 0
I like my sedan.
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
06/09/2017 at 09:44, STARS: 0
^This^
I remember parking my old Civic next to a new Malibu and my roof was about even with the top of his mirrors.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
06/09/2017 at 09:58, STARS: 0
Wagon, hatchback or crew cab truck. The sedan is being boxed in on all sides and if it isn’t truly pointless now it will be soon.
Which isn’t to say I wiuldn’t buy one.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
06/09/2017 at 09:59, STARS: 0
That sedan has enthusiast cred. Most have neither that nor practicality (at least compared to hatches/wagons).
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
06/09/2017 at 10:07, STARS: 0
I mean for a practical do-it-all kind of vehicle, they are perhaps the least useful.
Uh, yeah. I sometimes joke that if sedans had never been invented and somebody pitched them today (in a world of SUVs, vans, and crossover), they’d be laughed out of the room. They only exist due to tradition, and secondarily the (mostly outdated) need for some extra rigidity.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 10:33, STARS: 0
True, my ‘10 SHO looks hilarious next to some of the older sedans belonging to people I work with, its height is near-crossover and towers above older sedans.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 10:34, STARS: 0
It’s nice! But if you weren’t a car enthusiast, it likely has little practical value to you. When compared to hatchbacks, crossovers, etc.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 10:34, STARS: 1
The trunk on my ‘10 SHO is roughly level with the roof of an ‘99 Taurus, haha.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 10:36, STARS: 1
All valid points. My sedan hits all the unpractical-checkboxes. I have a ‘10 SHO, it has a high beltline, the interior space of a Fusion and yet, thankfully, I love it. Haha. It does have a huge trunk, so that redeems it... slightly.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 10:49, STARS: 0
Yeah, sedan’s with hatches are a huge step up in practicality and with the unprecedented heights that trunks are reach, it really does elevate the cargo space of sedans!
It’s sad that all comments are confirming my depressing thoughts.
Yet there’s a 3, 5 and 7 series. Ford makes sedans of Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, Taurus. Chevy Cruze, Malibu, Impala. Toyota Corola, Camry and Avalon. Car makers are still making them in droves.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 10:51, STARS: 0
So true, and yet car makers each have probably at least 3 different sedan models in their lineup.
fiesta, focus, fusion, taurus
cruze, malibu, impala
A4, A6, A8
3, 5, 7
ATS, CTS, XTS (or whatever letter-scheme they use now)
"jariten1781" (jariten1781)
06/09/2017 at 10:54, STARS: 0
They had a point! The point was a segregated, lockable luggage compartment. In addition to being more secure than just leaving your luggage exposed in a wagon or truck you could haul noxious items in the trunk and be reasonably free of the fumes. Sedans became functionally irrelevant when the cargo area became no longer separate from the passenger compartment and the locking system was integrated with a central system. As cargo covers in long roofs were implemented and once fold down seats and pass-throughs became the default in sedans, along with better tolerances preventing regular air exchange and better climate control able to adequately condition an entire long cabin there wasn’t really a functional point to the previously segregated luggage section. They’re solely aesthetic at this point and have been for quite some time.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
06/09/2017 at 10:56, STARS: 0
True, and it’s holding onto the past (and padding the fleets). If you look at the sales numbers, as well as the creation of new models, it’s almost all crossovers — or lifted wagons and hatchbacks, as I prefer to see them.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
06/09/2017 at 10:57, STARS: 0
In the end liking it is all that matters... unfortunately everyone seems to like CUV’s so everything else dies. :(
"wafflesnfalafel" (wafflesnfalafel1)
06/09/2017 at 11:01, STARS: 0
I think it just depends what you normally do with the vehicle. If 97% is commuting, getting groceries, maybe road trips with luggage, etc then a sedan makes perfect sense. A big trunk is super useful. But I don’t think functionality is driving many decisions - my folks dumped their sedan for a CUV not because what it could do, rather because they simply like the higher seating position and don’t mind the trade-offs in ride, gas mileage, etc.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
06/09/2017 at 11:12, STARS: 0
I prefer 5-door hatchbacks and wagons over crossovers, for better driving dynamics. But the general automotive-buying public has decided that they prefer their 5-door 2-box cars to be higher off the ground and vaguely ruggedized so the crossovers have taken over.
Here’s another thought to chew on: where are the 5-seat midsize crossovers? Out of the
top-100 selling vehicles
in the US so far in 2017, the only 5-seat midsize SUVs or crossovers are the Jeep Grand Cherokee, Subaru Outback, Ford Edge, Toyota 4Runner, Lexus RX, Nissan Murano, Cadillac XT5, and Mercedes GLE. You can sorta count the BMW X5 but it has an
optional
3rd row.
That’s 8 (or 9 with the X5) total 5-seat midsizers out of 45 SUVs and crossovers in the top 100. The Outback is a lifted wagon, the Grand Cherokee is a trucky unibody SUV, and the 4Runner is a truck. Even if you count the Outback as a crossover, that’s only 6 total 5-seat midsize crossovers on this list.
All of the other 5-seaters are technically in the compact segment, even though many of them are plenty roomy inside. I suppose this makes sense, because the compacts are space efficient for being not too big on the outside, and don’t burn much gas. The 3-row models are the minivan substitutes. The 5-seat midsizers tend to have not that much more room than the compacts but their mileage and driving experience isn’t much better than the 3-row models.
Here are all the SUVs & crossovers in the top 100 selling models so far in 2017:
4) Nissan Rogue - 161,340
5) Honda CR-V - 158,914
6) Toyota RAV4 - 150,646
11) Ford Escape - 129,805
13) Ford Explorer - 111,266
14) Chevy Equinox - 104,272
15) Jeep Grand Cherokee - 96,203
21) Toyota Highlander - 82,738
22) Jeep Wrangler - 80,083
25) Subaru Forester - 72,517
26) Subaru Outback - 72,234
26) Jeep Cherokee - 69,473
30) Ford Edge - 57,846
32) Toyota 4Runner - 53,098
33) Dodge Journey - 50,804
37) GMC Acadia - 48,111
38) Mazda CX-5 - 47,527
39) Hyundai Santa Fe - 47,426
44) Chevy Traverse - 46,178
46) Honda Pilot - 44,946
47) Jeep Renegade - 43,847
50) Hyundai Tucson - 41,707
52) Kia Sorento - 40,505
53) Nissan Pathfinder - 38,889
55) Lexus RX - 38,329
56) Honda HR-V - 37,756
58) GMC Terrain - 36,778
60) Chevy Tahoe - 36,631
61) Buick Encore - 35,768
63) Subaru Crosstrek - 35,706
69) Chevy Trax - 31,044
70) Dodge Durango - 30,432
74) Nissan Murano - 29,162
77) Kia Sportage - 28,087
81) Ford Expedition - 26,316
82) Jeep Patriot - 26,097
83) Cadillac XT5 - 24,707
87) Mercedes GLE - 22,005
91) Lexus NX - 21,426
92) Audi Q5 - 21,249
93) BMW X3 - 20,784
94) Chevy Suburban - 20,619
98) Acura RDX - 19,942
99) BMW X5 - 19,570
100) Acura MDX - 19,315
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 11:24, STARS: 0
Yep, maybe the sedan needs to be reinvented somewhat. But how? I dunno. I suppose sedanbacks are a start, or also known as 4 door hatchbacks, haha.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 11:26, STARS: 1
Yeah that’s the way to look at it, and apparently enough people are still saying “I like it” to sedans.
Unfortunately my girlfriend may get a CUV next, I am desperately trying to steer her to SUV, so we gain some towing ability between the two of us.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
06/09/2017 at 11:28, STARS: 0
I sort of see it as a dying format, much like forward-control vans, for example. But a lot of “image conscious” markets still keep it alive, such as China and Eastern Europe where sedans are still an aspirational/traditional layout.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 11:35, STARS: 0
5 seat mid-size crossovers, seem kind of a redundant segment with how similar they are to SUV’s but have less interior space. Such as Edge vs. Explorer.
Non-car people I talk to frequently make that comparison and as a result they frequently choose Explorer over Edge.
On the subject of 5 door hatchbacks, I agree! They make for some real awesome car designs, such as the A5. I think doing that to some more run-of-the-mill sedans could really set them apart and breathe some new life into the segment with an old concept.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
06/09/2017 at 11:45, STARS: 0
The Explorer is a 3-row crossover.
Compared to a 5-seat truck based SUV like the 4Runner, 5-seat midsizers are a big improvement in roominess and driving dynamics.
But within the realm of crossovers, the 5-seat midsizers offer a marginal increase in space over the 5-seat large compacts, but the efficiency of the 3-rowers.
You can also get more power with the 5-seat midsizers but not many crossover shoppers care about extra power above “adequate.”
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 0
Yeah, I know that, but still within the Ford line-up it sort of negates the Edge, they aren’t that much more in price, but they do offer more capability.
I agree on the subject of compacts vs mid-size, the Escape doesn’t seem a whole lot less capable of getting the same jobs done as an Edge can.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
06/09/2017 at 12:17, STARS: 0
Yup, pretty much. The Edge 2.0T has the same mileage as the Escape 2.0T but basically you just get marginally more room. The much larger 3-row Explorer 2.3T gets better mileage than both the Edge 3.5 and 2.7T.
It seems like most companies if they’re doing a 3-crossover lineup are going for a subcompact, large compact, and 3-row.
Ford is going to add the EcoSport subcompact soon to give them 4 crossovers.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 13:32, STARS: 0
Ha! Didn’t know about the Ecosport. It looks like a stubby Escape.
Also reminds me of the Focus C-Max.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
06/09/2017 at 14:31, STARS: 0
It’s been available outside the US for a year or two. I saw one when I was in St. Martin.
Ford did some goofy tie-in with Guardians of the Galaxy 2 where they did some promoting it with the movie but I don’t know how widely it was promoted because I don’t have cable TV anymore.
It’s extremely briefly in the movie when a character does something in space that has some effects on Earth, people on Earth are running/driving away from this big thing and you see an EcoSport driving away from the thing. But unless you knew to look for it it was very very easy to miss.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 14:42, STARS: 0
I happened to notice that it seemed to be available in other markets.
Seeing it in that picture, it seems like essentially a better looking C-Max and a competitor to the Chevy Trax. Used C-Max’s did seem very affordable when for second (her car was stolen and then found a couple days later) I thought my girlfriend needed a cheap car quickly.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
06/09/2017 at 14:57, STARS: 0
The EcoSport is built on the Fiesta platform, not the Focus like the C-Max. Its closest equivalent is the B-Max which is a Fiesta-based mini-minivan complete with sliding doors.
The B-Max is rather cool because it has no B-pillar.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/09/2017 at 15:03, STARS: 0
oh neat! Looks like decent leg room too.
"hillrat" (hillrat)
06/10/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 0
With children and their crap as a part of my daily life for the next ten years, I can’t see myself in anything other than a wagon, crossover, or minivan before 2030. Possible exception might be a Tesla.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
06/12/2017 at 09:21, STARS: 0
Why is the Tesla exempt?
"hillrat" (hillrat)
06/12/2017 at 10:34, STARS: 0
I should have been more specific and said the Tesla 3 as the only sedan I’m willing to consider. I live in the city and an EV is a legit choice for us for 90% of our driving, so if they become widely available in the next 3-5 years I might take a chance on it.