by "mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
Published 05/17/2017 at 11:54
by "mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
Published 05/17/2017 at 11:54
No Tags
STARS: 4
Impeachment after the jump.
For the leftists on Oppo, what is your end goal? If trump gets booted, then you get Pence who also makes your heads explode. Will there be a return to normal governance if Trump gets booted, or is the left going to RESIST!© no matter who is in office? I guess what I’m asking is when does sanity return (to both sides of the isle)?
"For Sweden" (rallybeetle)
05/17/2017 at 11:58, STARS: 4
I think the goal of leftists is to seize the means of production, which is why liberalism is the right choice.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
05/17/2017 at 11:58, STARS: 9
You know as much as I don’t like Trump and Pence, Trump is doing such a poor job that he has effectively accomplished nothing at all in the first 5 months of his presidency. I’m now thinking that maybe I want this to continue.
More than anything I want a viable 3rd party that is Bernie left not Hillary left.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/17/2017 at 11:58, STARS: 4
I’m no leftist (I’ve voted for plenty of candidates on both sides of the aisle), but I think that genie was let out of the bottle some time ago, and won’t be going back any time soon. I think it’ll tone down somewhat, because I think there will be a *little* less cannon fodder for the left, but it won’t stop. And I also think that if the election results were reversed, we’d have a lot of the same issues, but flip-flopped. :(
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
05/17/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 2
What about Pence makes people’s heads explode? Genuinely curious, since it seems like he’d be the far lesser of two evils for both sides to agree on.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/17/2017 at 12:00, STARS: 6
I don’t want Trump impeached (yet) because aside from court challenges, he’s the biggest roadblock in the way of GOP policies being implemented.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
05/17/2017 at 12:00, STARS: 4
I guess what I’m asking is when does sanity return (to both sides of the isle)?
Possibly never, which makes me really, really yearn for the late 90's again.
Extending that thought. Can we track the polarization of left vs right with the rise of the internet? How would you measure it? Is perception driving reality? Budgets are rarely getting passed and that is a basic function of Congress. They seem to be incapable of any compromise needed for passing meaningful legislation.
"McMike" (mcmike)
05/17/2017 at 12:01, STARS: 15
I don’t know if Pence is better or worse.
But off the top of my head, I have a feeling he might respect the office a little more.
"TahoeSTi" (tahoesti)
05/17/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 3
Look at those gas prices.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/17/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 16
Im more right than left, but what I want is a mostly effective, mostly not-corrupt leader. I think thats not too much to ask. Pence may be a party nuttist, but at least he has some governing experience and knows when NOT to speak.
"TheHondaBro" (wwaveform)
05/17/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 7
Sanity will return when we have a “President” in the White House, as in someone who isn’t an absolute embarrassment on the world stage. You guys had one of those during the primaries, but apparently your base decided to vote for the nationalist billionaire with a big mouth and even bigger ego.
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Trump wants to persecute Muslims. Pence wants to persecute gays. There is no winning with either one.
"For Sweden" (rallybeetle)
05/17/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 1
Maybe Rob Quist and his nudist resort friends can start such a party
#topical #local
"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
05/17/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 3
Made the anti-gay laws in Indiana when he was governor.
"Tekamul" (tekamulburner)
05/17/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 1
Pence is someone I disagree with, ideologically. Trump is a demented (in the medical sense) egomaniac with only a loose understanding of the political system and poor impulse control.
Let’s get Cotton Hill sworn in ASAP.
"For Sweden" (rallybeetle)
05/17/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 3
Bringing Alonso to Indiana made my head explode.
"R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet" (r-saldana)
05/17/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 0
I think sanity sadly does not return until the mid terms when the republican base in the house sees a major shift, and if it’s properly handled could change many senate seats.
"fintail" (fintail)
05/17/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 2
Normal governance? When was that? There was plenty of RESIST! during the prior regime.
Pence is slimy with more than one backwards ideal, but not as embarrassing.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/17/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 5
Not a leftist, but I’ll chime in. Pence is an Indiana Republican, and although more liberal voices than mine have characterized him as Sauron-in-training, that generally means level-headedness to me.
I don’t think most Democrats are angling to get Trump impeached, rather, I think they want to catalog all his missteps in preparation for ousting him in the next election. Which is fine. That’s one of the mechanisms that is supposed to keep elected officials on their toes. But, I do think all this hoopla and angst over everything Trump does is tiring. It sure does sell papers and raise news rating, though, which is why the news organizations are so giddy and eager to write dramatic headlines about everything he does.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
05/17/2017 at 12:05, STARS: 11
Pence seems like a recognizable figure- you know who he is and what he stands for. You can hate him and his beliefs all you want- but he does not come off like a spoiled, spiteful child. There would be some semblance of diplomacy vs uncontrolled abrasiveness.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/17/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 2
...liberalism is the right choice
hehe. I’m gonna pretend you did that on purpose.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/17/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 10
To be fair, if he was elected with the help of a foreign government, it needs to be in all the papers till our eyes bleed or he’s removed.
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
05/17/2017 at 12:07, STARS: 6
I’m just going to keep pretending that we’re comfortably enjoying the first few months of President Romney’s second term...
"TheHondaBro" (wwaveform)
05/17/2017 at 12:07, STARS: 4
And I also think that if the election results were reversed, we’d have a lot of the same issues, but flip-flopped. :(
Except that with the Republican-controlled House, the impeachment papers would have been drawn up sometime between election night and inauguration.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
05/17/2017 at 12:07, STARS: 13
You’d have to ask an actual leftist. But here goes. Donald Trump is absolutely unfit to be the president. Period. Beyond that, the agenda of the current version of the Republican Party concerns me greatly: anti-LGBTQ, anti-environmental protection, disenfranchisement and gerrymandering, tax cuts and health policy that dramatically favors richer Americans, promotion of religion in government, school vouchers. In short, I see a vision of America that only favors straight white wealthy Christians. I know none of that will change if we get President Pence and, given his own proclivities, may even get worse. But what might change is that we will have stability in the White House—somebody who knows what it means to be presidential, somebody who knows how to act as the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet. I’ve said it here before: I don’t necessarily want to see Trump fail. I want to see America succeed. And if Trump were able to do that, more power to him. But right now, his presence in the WH does nothing but destabilize our country and make us look weak internationally. And this is not the “liberal” media’s fault. It’s Trump’s. He has brought this all on himself.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
05/17/2017 at 12:07, STARS: 1
You know it’s tight, he might actually win. I’m pretty sure my folks used to smoke weed with Rob back in the day. Lee Enterprises endorsed New Jersey Greg, so they have lost all credibility never going to buy a sunday paper ever again.
"Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras" (jegoingout)
05/17/2017 at 12:07, STARS: 2
While I do lean more left than right, I’m not onboard the “impeach Trump” train strictly because of Pence.
"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
05/17/2017 at 12:08, STARS: 1
Pence can hold his tongue. Why people think it’s a great thing that we have a president both physically and mentally incapable of not immediately speaking what his thoughts of the moment are is mind boggling. Pence is a politician. I don’t like him, but he can walk the walks and shake the hands and in general keep things running.
I don’t agree with him politically at all, but last I checked, Indiana didn’t burst into flames. Romney and McCain were both really capable of running the country. Trump couldn’t sell steaks to America and bankrupted casinos......How the fuck you do that, I don’t know. I honestly fear his decisions will hurt the economy significantly while at the same time he will grab as much power as possible for the federal government as he can. If you have any conservative values at all, he represents everything that goes against the idea of a small, responsible government.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/17/2017 at 12:08, STARS: 2
I’d rather see Pence than Trump, whatever his failings may be, simply on the basis that I don’t trust Trump in any way, shape or form and I trust him even less with the power to start a war. Especially bearing in mind how sensitive he appears to be to personal criticism.
That said I’m not a leftist, or even American, so my endorsement of Pence means less than nothing to anybody else
"BeaterGT" (beatergt)
05/17/2017 at 12:09, STARS: 2
How about a return to competent governance? Impeaching Trump is just a drop in the bucket.
"Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap" (ddadragon)
05/17/2017 at 12:10, STARS: 3
I don’t agree with Pence but at least he’s not unhinged, and that’s a starting point I’m willing to work with.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
05/17/2017 at 12:10, STARS: 2
There will always be resistance to the typical Republican game plan of cutting taxes on the wealthy and defunding social programs to pay for it, but Pence at least understands how government works. He’s not going to be getting into twitter fights, he won’t be constantly caught in lies, he won’t make employees swear loyalty or anything else Trump does. If Trump and his team of loyalists are pushed out, the allusion of Russian impropriety likely goes with it as well.
The downside is that I fully expect Pence to rubberstamp any republican bill put before him. Look at Indiana to see what he’s willing to do. He will likely also push a more religious agenda, considering his deep faith, but the separation of church and state should help protect against his crazier ideas.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/17/2017 at 12:10, STARS: 2
We were fucked as soon as it came down to Clump.
Yes we. I know I’m not American but what you guys do affects everyone
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/17/2017 at 12:11, STARS: 1
And be a little more thick-skinned.
"CB" (jrcb)
05/17/2017 at 12:11, STARS: 1
As a Canadian who leans left, I think Trudeau could be doing a better job, so I probably won’t vote for him in the next election due to his fumbling of electoral reform. It’ll be interesting to see what happens with the Conservatives, because holy smokes, some of them are off-kilter (no, there should not be a test for “Canadian values” for immigrants, because what the hell does that even mean?). I’m hoping the NDP get someone good as their new party leader in time for the next election, as they’re my next top choice.
"Chuckles" (chucklesw37)
05/17/2017 at 12:12, STARS: 4
I think it’s a mixture of a few things. First, lots of people have been chomping at the bit to say “I told you it was a bad idea to elect this guy, and his impeachment validates my feelings!”
Secondly, I think people view Pence as a more predictable, more easily controlled evil. Trump is a wild card. Pence might be in direct opposition to the left, but he’s more of a known entity and less of a narcissist.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/17/2017 at 12:12, STARS: 0
You’re probably right about that...
"EL_ULY" (uly)
05/17/2017 at 12:12, STARS: 1
I’d vote Zordon
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/17/2017 at 12:13, STARS: 4
They were 2 historically bad candidates, really. Each one truly despised by a large percentage of the population.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/17/2017 at 12:13, STARS: 1
This, in a nutshell. Some stability would be great, thanks, for better or worse.
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
05/17/2017 at 12:13, STARS: 5
It sure does sell papers and raise news rating, though
Yep.
"For Sweden" (rallybeetle)
05/17/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 1
It is amazing that the guy who soundly lost the governor’s race might win this race.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/17/2017 at 12:15, STARS: 0
This should be all that matters, IMHO.
"For Sweden" (rallybeetle)
05/17/2017 at 12:15, STARS: 2
Everything right of Stalin is right-wing*
*/s
"itschrome" (itschrome)
05/17/2017 at 12:16, STARS: 3
as a left leaning center libertarian. I just want to be left alone and for every one else to stop treating each other like shit.. stop that, can’t we all just get along and prosper together?
"For Sweden" (rallybeetle)
05/17/2017 at 12:16, STARS: 1
Also that time hosting SNL
"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock)
05/17/2017 at 12:17, STARS: 1
Trump getting kicked out is more a statement that the world has’t gone completely mad yet. We need that, to help take our minds away from this deadly fucking reality show playing out. Anyone who understands cause and effect is an improvement over that ridiculous ogre.
"Party-vi" (party-vi)
05/17/2017 at 12:18, STARS: 4
My end goal is to have a commander in chief that isn’t overtly colluding with an adversary. Someone previously stated Trump blabbed more information in the span of 5 minutes at the oval office than John McCain did over 5 years at the Hanoi Hilton.
"Mercedes Streeter" (smart)
05/17/2017 at 12:18, STARS: 0
...that generally means level-headedness to me.
I don’t think LGBTQ folk and women (two groups he constantly attacks) would agree with you.
Dumping Trump is a no-win situation unless somehow the entire Administration gets nuked with him, which I don’t think would happen without substantial evidence.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
05/17/2017 at 12:19, STARS: 3
I’m not as liberal as some, but I think impeachment would kill some time, and hopefully turn popular attitude against republicans in general. You’re right that potentially pence could be worse for democrats. Because he is more conservative than trump and he would actually probably be effective at governing. But I think there is a good chance that if impeachment starts before the mid term, democrats can at least get a house, and if impeachment happens, pence would be pretty reserved in his leadership.
All of this is unfortunate because what I’d really love to see is some real world solutions to problems being created and worked on from both sides. Health care can be better, the criminal justice system can be better and I honestly think both sides of the aisle could find compromises on those topics. The tax system could be better but that’s pretty divisive. I know republicans aren’t all that enthused about rolling back citizens united but maybe some kind of campaign finance reform. Some sort of Middle East solution would be nice.
"jimz" (jimz)
05/17/2017 at 12:19, STARS: 13
maybe you’d get less pushback if you’d back off from throwing the term “leftists” around at everybody. this country doesn’t even have a viable truly left-wing party. The republicans are right wing, the Democrats are at least center-right. The Democratic party would be solidly right-wing in pretty much all of Europe.
"TheHondaBro" (wwaveform)
05/17/2017 at 12:26, STARS: 5
Paul Walker tho.
"Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever" (superchan7)
05/17/2017 at 12:27, STARS: 0
Given the lineup under him, I’m not sure I want Trump to get the boot at this time.
Best case, 2018 House gets its floors swept with actual capable people replacing the current filth.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/17/2017 at 12:29, STARS: 1
I agree that if he was in cahoots with a foreign government and/or they messed with our election results, then we should be on the war path as a country. It’s just that the evidence has not indicated that.
"BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo" (bluemazda2)
05/17/2017 at 12:30, STARS: 2
This is also something I’d like to know.
I really wanted Ted, Marco, or Jeb, but as we can all tell, they didn’t quite make it. I genuinely like Pence and agree with him on a majority of things. I’m not Trump’s biggest fan by far, but I’m perfectly fine with Pence and some of the people around them.
Mind you, this is an opinion coming from a teenage Catholic conservative Republican Latino immigrant.
I know a lot of fellow Colombian immigrants who voted for Trump because of Pence. A lot of people I know really like Pence.
"The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!)" (steve-still-hasnt-wrecked-the-powershift-in-his-12-ford-focus)
05/17/2017 at 12:30, STARS: 3
"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390)
05/17/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 1
I can get with this.
"The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!)" (steve-still-hasnt-wrecked-the-powershift-in-his-12-ford-focus)
05/17/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 2
I never thought I’d miss politicians like Mitt Romney, but here we are...
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/17/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 1
The evidence is mounting. I can’t say with authority (duh) but
"PS9" (PS9)
05/17/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 2
The end goal is to make sure someone dumb enough to leak intelligence info over a pissing contest is removed from the office, as this cavalier attitude toward the intelligence gathering apparatuses and the lives of those in the field who do the necessary work in keeping us and others abroad safe from terrorism is going to result in lives being needlessly lost and make the entire dangerous job harder. Or impossible, if allies decide the blood and treasure they’ve invested in information gathering is worth more than handing that valuable info to an imbecile who can destroy everything if he feels like it.
It’s also important to make sure holding office does not mean rising above the law. If as president, you have to ask potential law enforcement personnel to stop investigating you and your friends and fire them if they don’t comply, it probably means you’ve done something that renders you unqualified for the presidency.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/17/2017 at 12:32, STARS: 0
I was listening to NPR a couple months ago saying that the normal news ratings drop off after an election didn’t happen, and all news outlets, liberal and conservative, are reaping the benefits. They have every reason to keep the gravy train rolling.
"RutRut" (RDR)
05/17/2017 at 12:35, STARS: 0
I lean far more to the GOP side of things but here is my view. Trump gets the boot eventually, if not for this then something else down the line. Pence takes his seat, Dems take the office back by a landslide in 2020 if they run a reasonable candidate and campaign, and a primary process that isn’t a total cluster again. Ideally for me, I would like to Kasich primary Pence (or Trump if he somehow makes it through 4 years). The reality is an impeachment would be a big stain on the GOP going into 2020.
"jimz" (jimz)
05/17/2017 at 12:42, STARS: 0
no, because that’s for leftists.
"sm70- why not Duesenberg?" (sm70-whynotduesenberg)
05/17/2017 at 12:50, STARS: 1
Hi, leftist here. Pence is way far right for my tastes, but he’s a sane human, which I don’t believe Trump is. So yes, at this point I view him as an improvement.
"boxrocket" (boxrocket)
05/17/2017 at 12:57, STARS: 1
He also knows how to, y’know, NOT be on Twitter all the damn time.
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
05/17/2017 at 12:58, STARS: 0
I like them apples, brah.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
05/17/2017 at 12:58, STARS: 1
Do you live in Indiana? Why would Colombian immigrants be driven towards Pence specifically? He holds the same beliefs about religion (abortion) as all the other Republican candidates.
As someone who was raised in a conservative protestant household, I find it interesting that conservative protestants would be supported by Catholics. I went to church with lots of people who didn’t even consider Catholics Christians.
I never held these beliefs and am even married in the Catholic Church.
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
05/17/2017 at 12:59, STARS: 1
Yep, why stop covering the dumpster fire train wreck as long as it’s still burning?
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
05/17/2017 at 13:01, STARS: 0
With all the obvious missteps Trump is taking, I’m starting to think he may have been a Clinton plant all along. I mean, he’s basically doing all the stuff people were afraid Hillary was going to do. I think the person leaking all this info to the Times is Mike Pence. I couldn’t care less which one of them is president.
"loki03xlh" (loki03xlh)
05/17/2017 at 13:01, STARS: 1
I’m an independent, but most would call me a liberal, maybe even a socialist. I support single payer health care and the second amendment. (I support background checks for guns, but would really like be able to purchase a Ma Deuce after passing said background check.)
Trump will either be impeached or resign. I hope it drags out and damages the GOP, causing them to lose the House and Senate. I don’t like conservative, religious zealots. Pence, along with a GOP controlled House and Senate scares the shit out of me, and I’m a middle-aged, middle-class white male.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
05/17/2017 at 13:08, STARS: 9
“catholic conservative republican”
WHY does religion need to figure into politics at all? It shouldn’t matter. I’ve never understood this. In that sense this country is so un-free it’s not even funny. I’m all for congregations advocating against abortion, birth control, etc. But please for the love of humanity, let us non-catholic, non-religious or other-believers have our freedom.
This is exactly why I am afraid of people like Pence, Cruz, etc. They are scary old white men that work with nothing but other scary old white men. Isn’t it amazing the pictures you see coming out of DC? It’s all old white men deciding on health care a subject that decidedly affects women more than it affects men, given that they carry our children, our future generations.
We badly need a more representative democracy and feel we very badly need to more strictly live up to separation of church and state, first and foremost. I don’t want to attack religion in the slightest, I just want to remove it from government and politics, as far as it affects decision making. I absolutely believe that our government should continue to protect religious freedom wherever possible.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
05/17/2017 at 13:12, STARS: 0
I don’t understand why all these religions are at each other’s throats, the Catholics, the protestants, the dutch reformed, the 11 times reformed church of something something saints. You guys all believe in JESUS. God. Being friends. Love. Happiness. All that good stuff the bible teaches. Somehow all these churches are full of hate towards each other and go as far as calling other Christians non-Christians. Love thy damn neighbor please! I firmly believe that all of this is a gross miss interpretation of the spirit in which the bible was written.
Why most of all does this have anything to do with politics? That’s my real question. The phrase “separation of church and state” doesn’t seem to mean anything anymore. Has it ever meant anything? Why is it a consideration for who we elect? I know why. But why for you specifically?
"BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo" (bluemazda2)
05/17/2017 at 13:15, STARS: 1
I’m simply explaining who I am. I am a Catholic, but I am also a conservative republican.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
05/17/2017 at 13:15, STARS: 1
It’s because they all believe in made up stuff and think their version is correct.
The separation of church and state just meant we couldn’t have an official religion. It doesn’t prevent politicians from forcing their beliefs on others through legislation.
"BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo" (bluemazda2)
05/17/2017 at 13:16, STARS: 0
I’m referring to the general election. I’m not sure why, but a lot of people I know liked Pence.
I live in Florida, but I also know plenty of non-Colombian people who liked him.
"vondon302" (vondon302)
05/17/2017 at 13:17, STARS: 0
So much this.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
05/17/2017 at 13:21, STARS: 1
Okay, I’m still curious though.
Why is religion important to you in politics? You are sort of saying it is by stating you are a catholic conservative. You are also saying it by saying it you are a conservative, because the conservative party pushes for legislation that is religiously tainted in my opinion. Legislation that again, in my opinion, is inhumane to push onto all Americans. That brings me to inhumane, at the same time they go directly against the bible and propose legislation that would literally kill people. I just have such a hard time wrapping my head around why anyone would support that. I’m not saying you are supporting that due to your party affiliation. But it so utterly frustrating to see those assholes in DC push for this kind of stuff.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/17/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 3
So, as someone who’s on the social democrat/democratic socialist line (for what it’s worth, while I believe Bernie Sanders that he is actually a democratic socialist, in his speech about what that means, he described social democracy - and I am to the left of him) - that is, someone on the actual left, and who thinks that the neoliberals that control the Democratic party are nearly as much of a danger as Trump himself (that’s a long story that I’ll get into elsewhere) - I’m incredibly conflicted.
Trump being rather ineffective is one huge saving grace... buuuuut he could get us all killed, and if he’s threatening our sovereignty, that’s certainly grounds to fast-track him out of office. And, his rhetoric from a position of power has emboldened bigots to attack minorities.
I feel that Pence would be more effective, and therefore more dangerous to marginalized people in this country, but less dangerous in other ways. (However, there’s been a few rumors that Pence may be in on the Russian conspiracy, too...) And, Pence’s rhetoric is at least far more measured, so he might not inflame the bigots quite as much, even if he institutes policies that hurt minorities more.
At the same time, I also feel that a president shouldn’t be allowed to get away with the crimes that Trump may have committed against our country, and even if the cost of enforcing that means that we get Pence, it may be worth it.
In any case, yes, I’ll continue resisting until there’s a government that truly represents the interests of the people. (That means that I’m resisting the Democrats as well.)
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
05/17/2017 at 13:23, STARS: 1
“It doesn’t prevent politicians from forcing their beliefs on others through legislation.”
Which just isn’t okay with me. What also isn’t okay with me is that they claim to be Christian but then turn around and propose legislation that would literally kill people, bankrupt people and that already is tearing apart families with this new stance we have on immigration. Love thy neighbor much?
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
05/17/2017 at 13:31, STARS: 1
I’ve said many times that the media is not liberal or conservative. It’s capitalist.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/17/2017 at 13:32, STARS: 1
That above all. At least the folks who own and run it.
"WRXforScience" (WRXforScience)
05/17/2017 at 13:35, STARS: 9
Try this: replace the name “President Donald Trump - R” with “President John Smith - Wig”. If you are still equally supportive of the “policies”, actions, and demeanor of a hypothetical non-affiliated individual then your opinion is valid and well reasoned (you might still be wrong, but at least you’re not wrong because of bias).
I am a “leftist”, I support a single payer health care system, taxes that are nearly as much of a burden on the rich (and corporations) as they claim the current ones are, the freedom for women to decide on a personal level whatever the hell they want to do with their own bodies, and I accept the scientific conclusions on anthropogenic climate change.
I would be even more appalled by Trump if he was a Democrat, let alone if he were any other party. Before 2000 (W. would have warned us against a future Trump but 9/11 blinded us to the horrors that were yet to come), Democrats and Republicans were two reasonable political parties. Both had platforms and neither was anywhere close to perfect, but if the other party was in power they were at least nominally trying to do what they thought was best for the country.
After the Bill Clinton Blowjob Scandal, both sides became more interested in what would win them political favor and less interested in any kind of policy or platform building. The Republicans did a great job of finding successful strategies and out politicking the Democrats.
I have respect for the way the Republicans won the game; however, they failed to follow through with meaningful policy. They clung to Reganomics, which was thoroughly debunked and proven to have been a failed experiment. They dug-in and defended social and civil policies that cemented them on the wrong side of history and undercut civil rights and liberties.
The greatest sin of the Republican part has been the destruction of civil discourse. They have perfected a strategy that has divided the country and turned what should be dialog and debate into thoughtless, tribalistic rhetoric devoid of any introspection or even the willingness to acknowledge that a differing opinion could be valid.
Trump is the culmination of 3 decades of devolution within the Republican party, they were unable to stop him in the primaries, and have embraced him, in spite of all that he has done, because he is Republican. And there is proof! Just look at the support he has from his former opponents, people who he personally insulted and maligned for months (Ted Cruz is a perfect example). The only thing that Ted Cruz agrees on with Trump is that a Republican should be in the White House, and yet the party will tow the line for Trump regardless of his actions.
Pence has some reprehensible ideas on social policy, he was unelectable on his own (the dude would be right at home in “A Handmaid’s Tale”, and I hope he isn’t taking any notes or getting any ideas). “Leftists” don’t want Pence to be President, we just know that Trump has a way to go before he hits rock bottom, and he’ll drag us all down with him to the bitter end.
"Orange Exige" (OrangeExige)
05/17/2017 at 13:36, STARS: 1
Why must we act like this is a civil war - a battle between left and right?
If someone is clearly not capable of wielding the single most power in the world, then they should not be in that role. Period.
It’s true that we may not end up better off if Pence became president, but it isn’t about him right now except by sheer coincidence that he is next in line. Like Trump, it’s not like he’d have the country in his grips anyway with our checks and balances which have been working pretty well thus far.
But back to the original point, you don’t (ok, SHOULDN’T) say “wow our president is doing some shady and illegal things and is more than arguably incompetent, but his incompetence prevents our enemy political party to do anything so we’ll just keep the status quo.” It’s as absurd as it seems! It SHOULD be “wow... ..., let’s get him out of office where he doesn’t belong and we can deal with future issues resulting from this as they come up because that’s how our government was designed to work.”
"BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo" (bluemazda2)
05/17/2017 at 13:37, STARS: 1
With all due respect, I understand what you’re saying, but most of what I believe in not only politically, but personally is influenced by what my parents have raised me with, most of it being based around Catholicism. I can’t go back and change how I was educated. I do believe in separation of church and state, but most of what I believe in is based around what I have been taught my whole life.
On a side note, I usually state it because it still shows its influences in what I believe in. I don’t shove my religion down anyone’s throats, but I definitely want to establish its importance in how it shaped my current beliefs through what I’ve been raised on. I practice my religion relatively privately. I’ve never been one to say Catholicism is the reason I do everything. It isn’t. I base many things on what I personally believe in logically. If there’s one thing that Catholicism influences in my political views is abortion, which we are all aware is a controversial topic. My mother raised me to be pro-life. I am.
I only know one person on Oppo personally outside it. I don’t expect anyone else to know who I am, so I put it there to provide a brief understanding of who I am.
Also, English isn’t my first language, so I sometimes also can’t express things as I would like. Looking back at it, that’s a very long and confusing description. I am all of those things, but they are generally independent of one another. I didn’t mean it as Catholic conservative Republican in a way that makes them tied to each other, but rather in a way that says I’m a Catholic and I’m also a Conservative Republican.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
05/17/2017 at 13:40, STARS: 1
That’s what blows my mind. The Dems could have nominated a sweet potato and it would have beaten Trump. Why they were so obsessed with ramming Clinton down our throats is beyond me. One day, there will be a time for a woman president. I look forward to that day. But not this day. Not against Trump, and certainly not HC.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
05/17/2017 at 13:42, STARS: 1
That’s why governors tend to make better presidents. They have experience being the guy in charge. And I’ve always wondered about this desire to get a non-politician in the White House. Being president is a political job. If I need a new head gasket, I’m not going to take my car to a doctor.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
05/17/2017 at 13:44, STARS: 1
All of this is unfortunate because what I’d really love to see is some real world solutions to problems being created and worked on from both sides.
I would desperately like to see that too. But for some reason, politicians have lost the skill of consensus. The parties act like spoiled children, who take their toys and go home if they don’t get to make the rules. It’s really quite pathetic. And it would be laughable if so much weren’t at stake.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/17/2017 at 13:45, STARS: 1
Seriously, especially the doctors I know. My brother in Law is a radiation oncologist and he couldn’t change a tire. Seriously, I don’t think he could. its not like he’s too fancy for it either, just clueless.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
05/17/2017 at 13:48, STARS: 1
Some of the most intelligent people I know are also the dumbest.
"Sweet Trav" (thespunbearing)
05/17/2017 at 13:57, STARS: 9
Here’s what this leftist wants: Justice. Should Hillary have been prosecuted? Yes. Should Trump be prosecuted for obstruction of justice? Probably, lets get a Special Prosecutor. I want independent law makers, that put the country above the party. I want the DOJ, FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. to distance themselves from politics and enforce the law over political BS. I want campaign finance reform. I want citizens united to be overturned or an amendment that states that corporations are not people and do not have the same rights, with none of the obligation. I want to political corruption to be a capital offense. I want Congressmen, Senators, Governors, Presidents and Mayors of big cities to know that when they do something illegal, they will be punished harshly if found guilty by an independent panel. Until we as a nation bring back some level of accountability to those in power, they will continue to abuse it.
Honestly, I find the social policies of the GOP to be morally bankrupt and repugnant. I find Mike Pence morally repugnant. On one hand there is less likelihood that we will die in a nuclear fire, on the other maybe a somewhat competent human being would advance the dangerous GOP agenda quicker. We know by now trickle down economics is a fraud, but the GOP is great at getting people to vote against their own best interests just tap latent racism or religiosity and they have their votes. There are no poor Republicans only temporarily embarrassed millionaires, and minorities are the scapegoats. The Republican party used to be the party of Fiscal Conservatism, however (Our second worst president) Ronnie Reagan killed that tenant of the party. The GOP wants to simultaneously cut tax revenue, without curtailing spending in any meaningful way. It should be pretty apparent by now that GOP economic policies do not create jobs, growth, or NEW wealth; only deepen the pockets of those that have it.
Conversely The Democrats are worthless contrarians that want to win people over by being “not as bad as Trump”. They sell hope, but offer little progress. I like their social policies, but their economics are cut from the same cloth as the GOP. They refuse to do anything that upsets their corporate overlords when the people in this country are demonstrably struggling. Their inability or unwillingness to pass meaningful legislation(ACA had some good points but is mostly a dumpster fire) when they had the House, Senate and White House is unforgivable. I think that the problem with the Democrats, unlike the GOP which has racism, xenophobia, and/or religion to unite their base, the Democrats have no common threads or virtues that run through the party. Those virtues(for any Democrat leadership reading Oppo) should be Single Payer Healthcare, Living Wages/MBI and Equality. I don’t know a single voting Democrat who would oppose any of the three, and suspect that most moderates would enjoy that as well. The problem is the Democratic Leadership is bought and paid for, and is hilariously tone deaf on policy to help common folk.
All in all, Democrat or Republican, if you have demonstrated integrity for the service of the American people, and you don’t want to regress the rights of any of our citizens. I’ll vote for you.
"Frenchlicker" (frenchlicker)
05/17/2017 at 14:03, STARS: 4
I recall in one conversation that somebody hypothesized that if Trump were to get impeached and Pence were to be put into power it would terrify him. Pence would coast out his term and disappear into obscurity. I like the idea of this. However I’m from Indiana and know better. There is no winning with either. Currently he appears to be the lesser of the two evils, however he has a bette roller face than trump and everybody seems to have forgotten that.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/17/2017 at 14:06, STARS: 0
I think that both Clinton and the DNC did exactly what they promised not to do - they took beating Trump for granted. Just like the umpteen other R candidates did.
And yeah, I don’t quite understand why they were so fixated on her to begin with. Only thing I can figure is that there was a dearth of other options, and they feared that Bernie was too far left to win the general.
"B/Xmrrmvr" (davidedumass)
05/17/2017 at 14:17, STARS: 1
\thread
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
05/17/2017 at 14:21, STARS: 0
“If there’s one thing that Catholicism influences in my political views is abortion, which we are all aware is a controversial topic. My mother raised me to be pro-life. I am.”
You’ve touched on a polarizing subject, but here goes. I feel strongly about this subject, haha. But then I think we all do, here is my point of view:
Why can’t this be encouraged at a congregational level? Because I believe in abortion WHERE APPROPRIATE. But because someone else is pro-life due to religion, I also have to be? How would you even enforce this? Do you realize what you create when you outlaw abortion? You create a black market for abortions, you take us back to the early 1900's where botched abortions kill women. Where women die because they couldn’t get an abortion. Where women are forced to raise babies as a result of rape. Where women get arrested for seeking or having an abortion.
Abortions are incredibly hard decisions to make for women, for couples. Most are not decided on lightly. It’s the ones that are for convenience that I do not agree with.
Given that you are a form of Christian, why not promote policy that creates an America in which abortion is less necessary? That is actually a pro-life policy. Give mothers the confidence to have a baby and to not seek an abortion. Give men and women access to education and birth control. Give children better education. Get children out of poverty. There are children alive TODAY that are suffering immensely as, and sorry for being crass: as a bunch of assholes POUR money into anti-abortion. Again there are children ALIVE, OUTSIDE of wombs that are suffering. Help them first!!! I bet as a side-effect of helping those children already born, you’ll see a huge reduction in abortions, because we create a better society in which to raise children, rather than punish, why not create a world in which abortion is less necessary. Dare I say it’s the more Christian approach? It’s definitely the more human approach, in my opinion.
"BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo" (bluemazda2)
05/17/2017 at 14:38, STARS: 1
Although we do hold those beliefs, my family is very involved with helping children and their families who are less fortunate than us. Although we make good money, we are relatively humble and help out as much as we can. We donate to charities frequently and personally volunteer at orphanages, soup kitchens, and other places where we can help families who are less fortunate. Instead of throwing away good clothes I outgrow, I always donate it to those who need it.
My father is a realtor. Two years ago, he was put in charge of some properties owned by some guy who paid him to help out. In one of the houses lived a less-fortunate family who couldn’t afford many of the things I have. The son, who was 3 at the time, only had a few toys here and there. Without saying anything, I went ahead and got him a 5 pack of matchbox as well as a hot wheels pack and a small matchbox playset for his birthday. I loved seeing the look on the little boy’s face when I gave him the presents for his birthday about two weeks after I met him. My father helped by paying their electricity bills for the summer, where temperatures can rise to 100° F in south Florida. He also fixed their AC system.
I absolutely love helping others. I come from a country with a lot of poverty and problems related to it. I help out because it comes from my heart. I firmly believe in helping others. I don’t pour money into anti-abortion campaigns, I’m simply pro-life personally. I don’t shove it down anyone’s throat. Hell, my friends didn’t even know until they noticed that my mom has a choose life Florida plate on her car. I totally agree with giving mothers the confidence to have children. I don’t want an environment where an abortion seems necessary. That’s my personal opinion.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
05/17/2017 at 14:42, STARS: 1
Jesus Christ himself could have stood up for the nomination and it still would have gone to Hillary. I hope the DNC has been doing some serious soul searching. They can point to the 3 million popular votes that they won over Trump, but they lost where it counted.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
05/17/2017 at 14:43, STARS: 2
Boy, that’s a whole other nightmare.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/17/2017 at 14:47, STARS: 0
AND barely campaigned in a bunch of those states that counted. Brilliant strategy.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
05/17/2017 at 14:50, STARS: 2
I understand all that and I applaud you for helping those in need.
But do you understand what it means to be pro life? It means you want to make abortion illegal and that you want to persecute women that often have very valid reasons for needing them. Being pro life means so much more than being against abortion. That’s why I hate it. I totally agree with the concept of being anti-abortion. But voting for pro-life candidates is so much more than that.
I know women that have had to have abortions and it haunts them for the rest of their life, it’s one of the hardest decisions they ever had to make. Ever! And there are politicians that want to persecute/punish them on top of that.
On top of all this we have a republican party that is against BOTH birth-control AND abortion. It’s insane.
I think the “pro-life” branding/campaigning needs to go away, it doesn’t celebrate life, it doesn’t support life. It merely persecutes women. So why not replace it with that phrase? “celebrate life” or “support life”. Reductions in abortion will be a happy side effect.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
05/17/2017 at 15:45, STARS: 1
I will agree with you to a point.
The point is the one-up-man-ship that both parties have displayed in their desire to craft a plutocracy and shred the Constitution.
With Dubya we got the Patriot Act. With Obama we got the NDAA claiming to be able to secretly assassinate those whom the government deems to be terrorists (as opposed to having that conviction be handed down by a court). And now? We have the Imperial Presidency where we engage in things that should only happen in actual banana republics.
The problem here is that when a party decides that “Oh we need a giant new government program to handle problem X”, we should first ask them: “And what would happen if you were to be booted from office and the other party given complete reign over this proposed monstrosity?”
If there is anyone to blame why we are turning into a plutocracy, you can look directly in the mirror, America. You have done this to yourself, because you do not want to be responsible for self-government (That’s someone else’s problem isn’t it?)
"BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo" (bluemazda2)
05/17/2017 at 15:55, STARS: 1
While I agree with you on the whole pro-life branding, I honestly don’t believe in persecuting women, but I genuinely don’t believe in allowing them in almost every case. My mother has always stressed this upon me. I sincerely apologize, but I simply can’t communicate what I would like to say in words as such. The language barrier here is what’s not letting me. I can probably communicate it decently enough in Spanish, but I honestly can’t translate most of it into English.
I don’t believe in punishing women or persecuting them, but at the same time, I don’t want them to get an abortion if their life isn’t at risk. I understand that sometimes you need to take action if the mother’s life is at risk, but I simply can’t fathom as to why an abortion would be necessary in other cases. I’ve met women who aborted and they all told me they regret it. They all have children now and they all generally agree that once you have kids, it changes your mind. I’m a 19 year old college student. I support birth control because it comes in handy when you need it. Trust me. My views don’t necessarily reflect the views held by most Republicans exactly and vice versa.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
05/17/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 1
The problem is that it’s unenforceable once you do ban it. It’s just not something we can ban. It is just impractical. So yes, you can be anti-abortion. But you can’t make it illegal. It would cause a full-blown humanitarian crisis. Banning abortion would be equal to ignoring the consequences, because the consequences cannot be stopped. Women will die. Men and women will be arrested for performing them. Families will be taken advantage of financially. Where they don’t have the financial means they may even be forced to pay with sexual favors. Guess who would still have access to clean, safe abortions? The rich, the powerful, the famous.
I absolutely support that you believe abortions are bad, that they shouldn’t happen. I respect your stance on the issue, I can absolutely understand it. I too have spoken to women that have had abortions, they all regret it. But I cannot support outlawing abortion. For the above reasons. Again, it would create a humanitarian crisis. We have enough problems with meth, terrorism, heroin, human trafficking, let’s not add black-market-abortion to it.