by "functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
Published 05/16/2017 at 11:28
by "functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
Published 05/16/2017 at 11:28
No Tags
STARS: 1
So now that I’ve had my old truck for over a year, I’ve decided to upgrade the brakes to a dual-reservoir master cylinder as a safety measure. I asked oppo a few weeks back about that, and got a lot of great feedback. I’ve been on the Ford truck forums and gained valuable knowledge there, too. I’ve talked with several local people and learned still more from them. But mostly what I’ve learned is that a) the job is a bit more complicated than I thought, and b) everyone thinks you might as well do X while you’re doing Y.
And the more people I talk to, the more I feel like I’m making a mistake for doing anything short of replacing
every single component in the entire braking system
, which isn’t happening. But where do you draw the line? Especially with something like brakes, where I don’t want to skimp on arguably the single-most important safety item in a vehicle my kids ride in.
Does this happen to you? When you have a project car, or even a driver (like my truck) that has some needed upgrades or just general attention due to age, then when you go around asking people about it, everyone has an opinion like, “Well, if you’re going to
really
clean the windows, you might as well pull apart the doors and replace all the weather stripping and also that windshield has some pitting so you might as well replace that and the rubber is cracked on the rear window, so... plus there could be some rust lurking in there behind the old rubber so basically you might as well strip down all the paint and do a frame-off resto... ” when all I wanted was an opinion on Beyond Glass brand window cleaner over regular Windex (it’s great, by the way).
This exact thing happened with my former truck. I went to the best local body shop to ask about some body work, and before I knew it the guy was saying, “well, we could get a bed out of, you know, down south they got a lot of ‘em down there in good shape... plus the hood I think I know a guy with one of those nearby... the cab I think we could probably get one from so-and-so outta Boston, probably... then I think the tailgate looks like we could maybe re-use it...” and I was like, wait. What? That’s a whole new truck. Never mind. I’ll just keep it as-is.
You know what’s ended up happening now?
Nothing
. I’m driving the truck with the brakes just like they are - which is perfectly fine, by the way - until I can figure out how far to go. Part of the problem is I don’t really have a budget. I have some money set aside for this kind of thing, and it’s waaaaay more than a complete brake job on this truck. But do I really need to spend $1,500 redoing every single component of this truck’s brakes? Because I don’t have the time to do it all myself, so there’s going to be labor involved.
Probably I’ll end up addressing things like brake shoes, wheel cylinders, etc. at home; if they’re OK I’ll leave them, and have my shop do the master cylinder and make up some new brake lines. I don’t have the tools and I hear they have a guy who makes beautiful brake lines. But oh yeah, finding the time to go over 4 drum brakes and ancient wheel cylinders, when I don’t really know what to look for, all my other vehicles have disc brakes... ugh.
I should really get back to work now. Or youtube to look up drum brakes...
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
05/16/2017 at 11:39, STARS: 1
My order of brake repair on the Galaxie has been: Almost no brakes but clear MC function -> replace front cylinders and flex lines, adjust front brakes, inspect shoes (OK) ->no rear brake function - >see that rear axle hard lines and cylinders have been refreshed - > replace flex line at rear, damaging hard line to rear, replace hard line to rear.
So, at this point, brakes are active at all four wheels through mostly fresh hard lines, all new flex, all replaced-at-some-point cylinders... and the original jam jar master. All hard lines run from a junction block on the frame right below the master, so that would get swapped with a jump to dual, but all things considered, I don’t see the need to go to power master, ever. Maybe a dual master for dual drums (Falcon/Mustang is a match, cheap) down the line, but for now, I’m not messing with it.
"CalzoneGolem" (calzonegolem)
05/16/2017 at 11:39, STARS: 1
Yeah those might as wells really add up.
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
05/16/2017 at 11:42, STARS: 1
Feature/repair creep can be a doozie on a project vehicle. IMO, it depends on your mentality and the vehicle’s application: Do you lose sleep over tightening bolts to 34ftlb instead of the spec’d 35ftlb? Does your torque wrench get calibrated more often than you shower? Will you be driving a truckload of children through the White Mountains? If so, maybe it’s worthwile to replace the whole system.
If it stops sufficiently and you’re happy but just want a little extra reassurance, replace bits and pieces as you see fit. If you don’t get it this round, maybe next time even if it’s significant additional work.
Time and money are limited resources. Where can you put them to see the best ROI? Undoubtedly everything on a 60 year old vehicle could stand to be replaced but do the annoying and important stuff first.
"TheRealBicycleBuck" (therealbicyclebuck)
05/16/2017 at 11:42, STARS: 1
This happens to me in just about every aspect of my life. We want to re-do the office. That means taking down all of the shelves, removing the furniture, etc. Where do we store it? Well, if we cleaned out the garage...
The same is true for my old truck. I fixed the intake leaks, but now it needs a new battery. There’s a leak in the clutch which I’m pretty sure is the master cylinder but might be repairable with a new gasket, but it’s pretty old and could use a new one. Then there’s the leak in the a/c....
Such is life.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
05/16/2017 at 11:43, STARS: 1
there are very few things on life I dont cheap out on.
one of them being brakes, and the other rubber (tires, belts, condoms, etc etc). if car doesnt start, big shit. if you cant stop predictably and turn properly, its just a rolling death trap. bit more important when you have someone else other then you in the car along side you.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
05/16/2017 at 11:52, STARS: 2
Yeah, the “while I’m at at it” stuff can really get out of hand. One second you are just replacing an oil pan gasket and the next you have a bare block at the machine shop.
But where do you draw the line? Especially with something like brakes, where I don’t want to skimp on arguably the single-most important safety item in a vehicle my kids ride in.
Regarding this, I’d say brakes are a bit of an exception. You should at least be running something somewhat equivalent to a modern braking system. That doesn’t mean six piston calipers at each corner with retrofitted ABS, but power brakes, discs up front, dual circuit, non-50 year old lines and hoses should be the minimum.
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 11:52, STARS: 1
Well, I am literally driving my kids around in the White Mountains... but not the real mountains just yet. We live south of the big ones.
But yeah, I think I’ll be inspecting a lot, then replacing the master... and continuing my annual, “this year’s big project is...”
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 11:53, STARS: 1
Indeed, and I find that, like with an old house, once you touch something you’re opening a can of worms....
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
05/16/2017 at 11:53, STARS: 1
Remember that the #1 most important thing for stopping in icy and wet conditions are good TIRES!
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 11:55, STARS: 0
I agree with you except for front discs... that’s another major upgrade that some have recommended but I’m really OK with drums. The dual master opened a can of worms because of a whole thing about pedal travel and how the secondary circuit is actually activated in the event of a failure on one circuit... so yeah.
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 0
Ha. Also true. Which brings me to... the tires are probably 30 years old, too. Stored indoors, of course. But still. There’s another $1000
"just-a-scratch" (just-a-scratch)
05/16/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 1
Drums are fine. They work great. If you keep ‘em, maybe you don’t haul a heavy trailer on mountain roads, but were you really going to do that anyway?
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 12:01, STARS: 0
Right, this isn’t a long-distance hauler. It’s going around town mostly, and for that, drums are fine.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
05/16/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 0
I learned to drive in basically the same truck (1965 3/4 ton Ford 4x4). Only the drivers side rear brake worked. You are already ahead of the curve. For my money if the master cylinder is working the new shoes and rebuilt wheel cylinders is all it really needs with a fluid flush.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
05/16/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 0
My general sense is “if I can lock them easily, I don’t need the discs or power upgrade”. Doesn’t mean it isn’t nice to have, just not - for me - as high priority.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
05/16/2017 at 12:23, STARS: 0
Power is probably one of the nice-to have things, but I figure discs are less problematic with fade and wet performance. Plus you can inspect them quick, have a much wider selection of pad materials, and they are self adjusting.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
05/16/2017 at 12:29, STARS: 0
All true. In my cases on the balance, putting discs on a Land Rover makes approximately no damn sense, putting them on the Ranchero was kind of forced as an issue (since the rear drive came with discs), and on the Galaxie... well, I’ll wait until such a time as I really want them, but they aren’t going to bankrupt me when I do.
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 12:33, STARS: 0
Ha! Yes, all of the brakes appear to work, although I haven’t done a lot of testing on loose gravel to see if they all lock up, for example. It stops pretty straight and seems generally OK.
It’s even possible the guy who had it before me put some new shoes in it, I’ll have to see. Some of the lines are newer... others are quite old.
One big driver here is that I experienced a total brake failure in my former old truck, so I won’t let that happen again... especially with kids in the truck with me.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
05/16/2017 at 12:35, STARS: 0
Non-Mustang Foxes have this problem over and over.
Want to upgrade the weak 5.0? Some headers help, an intake helps, and then you might as well do the full HO swap, which requires a computer, and cam and head swap, and if you’re doing all that, might as well get the GT-40P heads and intake, or maybe even aftermarket.
Want to upgrade the puny brakes? You can get some GT fox brakes, but you’d need the calipers too, or you can get some 13in rotors from a SN-95 Cobra or Mach, but you’ll also need the spindles for the new hubs, you’ll need the bottom a-arms because the spindles have different ball joints, and you’ll need different struts to match the spindes, and you’ll need hoses because the banjo fittings are different, and then on top of all that, you’ll need 17inch or bigger wheels with 5 lug bolt pattern, and you might as well get decent tires while you’re at it.
Not sure where I was going with that.
Anyways, I’ve found that the only sane way to approach it is to pick your “final” product, and to start collecting parts to achieve it, but then don’t waver unnecessarily from the plan. That way you don’t have to drop a ton of money at one time and you won’t waste money buying parts you won’t use. Personally, I’m of the mind that the factory stuff is usually safe enough if it’s in good condition and well maintained. That goes for brakes as well.
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 12:45, STARS: 0
Ha. A friend with a Ford 351-powered boat went through a similar thing. He was replacing heads because one was cracked. He wanted to get some GT40P heads like you mentioned, but then went down the same rabbit hole... same idea.
I think you’re right; my end goal IS a dual master cylinder with power brakes, keeping factory drums all around. So I’ll move toward finding time to inspect/replace shoes, hoses, anything I can put my hands on relatively easily. Then when those bases are covered, worry about the master/booster conversion.
"E92M3" (E46M3)
05/16/2017 at 13:27, STARS: 0
4 wheel cylinders, new shoes, and spring kits, she stops fine. Sure power brakes would be nice, as would front discs, but part of the charm of an old truck is the driving experience. Make it too modern, and you might as well just get a newer truck. My 6 yr old rides in it all the time. He’s lucky he has a seatbelt!
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 14:47, STARS: 0
Nice truck! The only reason I want power brakes is that I have them now, and didn’t have them in my old truck... I really do like it enough that I’ll make the effort to go with a booster.
I have lap belts now but I’m planning shoulder belts soon. I have them in my possession but haven’t installed them...
What year is yours?
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 14:47, STARS: 0
Nice truck! The only reason I want power brakes is that I have them now, and didn’t have them in my old truck... I really do like it enough that I’ll make the effort to go with a booster.
I have lap belts now but I’m planning shoulder belts soon. I have them in my possession but haven’t installed them...
What year is yours?
"E92M3" (E46M3)
05/16/2017 at 16:59, STARS: 0
66, what engine is in yours?
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/16/2017 at 17:33, STARS: 0
292. Yours?
"E92M3" (E46M3)
05/16/2017 at 18:19, STARS: 0
300 I6
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/17/2017 at 07:51, STARS: 0
My father’s 79 has that engine, it’s great. Arguably better than a lot of the V8s from that era...
"E92M3" (E46M3)
05/17/2017 at 08:45, STARS: 2
Yeah, it’s a good engine (almost the same displacement as a 302 V-8). I should replace the rear mail seal, but it requires lifting the engine just to get the pan off. It’s a rope seal, which is a real pain to replace, and could very well still leak a little afterwards. Maybe I’ll just wait until it needs a rebuild.