by "bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
Published 05/12/2017 at 10:02
by "bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
Published 05/12/2017 at 10:02
Tags: Miata
; mazda
STARS: 2
It’s been a long-standing meme in the automotive enthusiast community that
Miata is always the answer
- want a cheap fun sports car? Miata. Want a somewhat efficient commuter car? Miata. Want a family hauler? The trunk’s big enough to stick a kid in, Miata. However, for me, Miata’s no longer the answer.
As those who have read my posts here probably know, I’ve been an efficiency enthusiast for a very long time, and that was my route into car enthusiasm. My first car was a 1985 Jetta diesel (and I’ve owned two more VW diesels over the years), for years I had plans to build my own homage to the Volkswagen 1-Liter concept, and my current daily driver is a 2016 Prius.
So, how does someone get into Miatas from there? Well, when you have a horrifically unreliable VW diesel, and you have to borrow a RWD Ranger with bald tires, in winter, just to get to work... you learn quite a bit about controlling a RWD vehicle. That’s really what led to my interest in Miatas - and, with small 4-cylinder gas engines, they’re not going to be terrible efficiency-wise, right?
Upshot was, I bought a 1992 Miata. It was rusty, it was salvage title... but it was cheap, and it was fun. And, even with all of that, it was a hell of a lot more reliable than the 1986 Golf diesel it replaced. That was the car that sucked me into believing that Miata is always the answer - for me, it could do everything, while being driven at 9/10ths everywhere, and get 28-34 mpg doing it. (Well, the blown headgasket and the failing timing belt tensioner had other things to say about that, but it was still the best car I had ever owned by far, up to that point.)
When it quit running, it wasn’t worth fixing, and I missed having actual low-end torque, so I got a 1999.5 Golf TDI. It wasn’t a Miata handling-wise, but after the tuning that I had done to it, the torque was pretty epic. And, it was a great road-trip car, unlike my previous Miata. It was a total basket-case, though, and after a few years (and two blown heater cores), I went off in search of another Miata... and I found one, a 2000 Miata LS with 14,000 miles. In February 2015.
Of course, what I bought was too nice to actually use in winter, so I ended up driving the Golf, with no heat, for the winter of 2015-2016. Yeah. My plan was never to have two cars, but, well... that happened.
But, when I drove the Miata, it felt like I was home - I was back into a car that did what I told it to, when I told it to do it, and the larger, properly working engine meant that I actually had some torque, even if it wasn’t much. (Now, it does mean that my lifetime fuel economy average is only 24 mpg, but hey.) After swapping some NA cloth seats in, it was surprisingly comfortable, too. (NB1 seats, especially with Mazda’s crappy leather, are torture devices .)
But, really, I think it was September 2015 that I began falling out of love with the Miata - I took it on a 2000 mile road trip. Physically, I was quite comfortable, the tweaks made to the NB’s chassis took up the miles (most of them spent at 4000 RPM) with aplomb unlike a NA, and I got about 30 mpg. However, you spend 2000 miles in a convertible, even with the top up, at 80 mph, and the noise is going to eventually get to you.
So, I knew I was going to have to replace the Golf before winter hit in 2016 - I wasn’t going to drive the Miata on the wintry roads (snow tires are nice, and a Miata does amazingly well in winter with them, but that doesn’t help prevent rust), and I needed heat, and ideally better heat than even a properly working old TDI could give me. In addition, I had some interest in going plug-in hybrid, although it would require convincing my landlord to install an exterior outlet.
Come March, I was considering the Gen 2 Volt as the replacement for my Golf - on paper, it looked like an ideal package for my requirements - I could drive on all electric in my daily driving, and then only use gas on occasional longer trips - and the restricted back seat was a non-issue, considering I was dailying a Miata anyway. I was also idly considering the Tesla Model 3, although I wasn’t sure if I’d want to be tied to the Supercharger network - often, when I’m on a roadtrip, I want to choose where my longer stops are, so I can eat in more interesting places, rather than whatever chains are clustered around a Supercharger. And then, Toyota announced the Prius Prime - shorter range than the Volt, but plenty of range for my daily commute, far better charge sustaining efficiency... and, wait, the reviewers were saying that the Gen 4 Prius actually drives a lot better? Hmm. Maybe I should test drive a Gen 4, see what it’s like, to see whether I should even consider the Prime.
One thing that I like to do when considering a car is... never make a decision the day I drive the car. (I’ve made that mistake a couple times, although one time, my existing car wasn’t running, so...) Instead, drive it, then get back in my existing car and drive home . This is important, because it gives me time to compare more thoroughly to what I’m used to. That technique saved me from replacing my Golf with a Fiesta 1.0T - what felt OK (not good, merely OK) when I was test driving the Fiesta, felt disconnected and boring in comparison, the moment I started backing my Golf out of the parking space. So, I did three test drives before buying my Prius - I test drove a Gen 4 Prius (not the one I ultimately bought, instead a Touring trim with 17" wheels and stiffer dampers, to give the Prius the best chance possible), a Gen 2 Volt, and a Tesla Model S (the closest thing to a Model 3 I could drive). In each case, I drove my Miata to the test drive, and went back home - sure, it wasn’t fair to compare the driving experience of 3000-5000 pound four-door eco-friendly liftbacks to a 2300 pound Miata, but if a car held up to that comparison, I’d probably like it.
Upshot was, the Volt drove so badly that I hated it on the test drive - I didn’t even have to get back in the Miata to know it was bad. The Model S drove nicely, but it wasn’t a Model S I was after, and the Model 3 still isn’t out. The Prius drove shockingly nicely, and I got along with it really well. I decided not to wait for the Prime (which was a good decision - I wouldn’t have gotten one until deep into winter), and bought the standard Prius instead a few months later.
Once I had the Prius, though, it didn’t make sense to daily drive the Miata - after all, the Prius uses less than half the fuel, and I’m paying quite a bit for it. I decided to drive the Miata on the weekends, though, to keep everything in good shape.
Somewhere along the line, though, this began to feel like a chore - the Miata was no longer fun. I had to fight the engine’s power curve, grab it by the scruff of its neck, and beat on it to get anywhere. The ancient engine management was really showing its age in the lack of engine refinement. The built-to-a-price nature of the Miata was showing pretty badly, with rattling windows and such. There’s even little things that are normal to conventional ICE cars, where rolling down the power windows causes the revs to dip and the cabin lights to dim, as the alternator is loaded down, that bother me.
Come October or so, and I was down to driving it once a month, and only because I felt I had to. Then, winter came, and it was parked to avoid salt. I did end up driving it for a few days in January, but only because of an incident with a tire that put the Prius in the body shop. Since then? I’ve only driven it a couple times - once in March I think, and then this morning, to blow out the cobwebs.
It feels every bit of the 1980s economy car that it really is (having come out in 1989), and I don’t enjoy driving it any more. The handling is still telepathic, of course, and it makes me want to put bigger sway bars on the Prius... but it’s not good enough to make me want to drive the Miata over the Prius (it helps that the Prius isn’t bad in that department). I’ve somehow even lost my love of the manual gearbox, although the Miata’s manual is excellent as always - I’d rather have the smooth, relentless torque of an electric, or even of my Prius’s power split device.
That’s not to say that the Prius is my ideal - the handling could be tightened up some, I’d love to have RWD handling characteristics, and on the efficiency side, I want more electric power share, but overall, I really like it. And, maybe it’s just me getting older (next year, I’ll be 30), maybe it’s me getting more boring, but I don’t love the Miata any more. It’s no longer my answer.
"Arrivederci" (arrividerci)
05/12/2017 at 10:14, STARS: 3
As soon as you get rid of your Miata you’ll regret it. Ask me how I know.
"LOREM IPSUM" (lorem---ipsum)
05/12/2017 at 10:22, STARS: 1
I hope whoever made off with your soul is kind enough to return it.
Tragic.
"AndyG_UK" (ajg1974)
05/12/2017 at 10:26, STARS: 0
“That’s not to say that the Prius is my ideal - the handling could be tightened up some, I’d love to have RWD handling characteristics, and on the efficiency side, I want more electric power share”
So you should have got a BMW i3 REX then?? lol
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 10:35, STARS: 0
Except with like twice the engine power, and a few more gallons of fuel, and maybe a power split transmission instead of a purely serial hybrid driveline, and I’d even accept less battery to get that, and a lower roofline, sure.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 10:36, STARS: 0
The funny thing about that is, I regretted getting rid of my 92 Miata, and that’s why I got this 2000.
This time around, though? I don’t think I’d miss it that much.
"The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!)" (steve-still-hasnt-wrecked-the-powershift-in-his-12-ford-focus)
05/12/2017 at 10:43, STARS: 3
I had a similar experience with a Miata. My first car was a ‘97 Honda Accord sedan with an automatic. It was fantastic in the way that 90's Hondas are, even though it had 4 doors and a slushbox. I bought a nice, low mileage ‘00 Miata in college (giving my teenage sister the Honda when she got her license) and drove the wheels off of it. It was a blast, but I too couldn’t bring myself to drive it in the winter and there were times when I had to borrow the Honda back because I needed more room. After a few years, I decided the Miata was worth more as cash in the bank than a weekend toy and sold it. Around the same time, my sister went off to college and took my mother’s car with her, so I got ye olde Honda back (with a bunch of new dents - thanks sis!). The Honda didn’t drive near as well as the Miata, but it was more fun than it any right to be, it was comfortable, and everything still worked like new. I drove it until I bought my Focus in 2012.
Do I miss the Miata? Yes. It was fun in a way that few other cars could be, but I’m not hard core enough to drive something like that every day, in every weather. I didn’t have a garage to protect it or store a set of winter tires and hard top. I also didn’t have the money to stick the car somewhere and sit on it - selling that car was the nest egg that allowed me to put down a large down payment on my Focus and still have some money left in the bank.
Do I want another? Yes, and so does my wife. We started dating soon after I sold it, so she never got a ride. The thing is, I think I want a last generation Prelude or Acura Integra even more. One of them gives me much of the fun-to-drive quotient of the Miata, with the all around refinement and ergonomics of my old Honda. I just hope some are left 10 years from now when I might have the money and space to spare for a ‘toy’ again.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 10:44, STARS: 0
In my case, it’s not even the winter tires thing that made me avoid driving a Miata in winter - I actually found that they work quite well for that with winter tires.
It’s the rust factor. Especially NBs will rust if you look at them funny...
"AndyG_UK" (ajg1974)
05/12/2017 at 10:47, STARS: 0
Why twice the power, the Prius doesn’t have twice the power and the i3 is significantly faster to accelerate than the Prius anyway and while the new Prius is meant to drive much better than the old one (not hard) the i3 just drives well full stop.
And why a lower roof line, you bought a new Prius so surely anesthetics can’t be high on your list? lol
"The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!)" (steve-still-hasnt-wrecked-the-powershift-in-his-12-ford-focus)
05/12/2017 at 10:47, STARS: 0
When I sold mine it had a few bubbles on the rocker panels. If I kept the car, I would have had it fixed before it got worse, but you’re right that the clock was ticking on it even without driving the car through the winter. If I did drive it through the winter, there would have been nothing left of it by now.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 10:52, STARS: 0
Twice the engine power. Which, the Prius has closer to three times the i3 REx’s engine power.
An i3 REx can only really hold 65-70 mph on the engine, without depleting the battery, because it only has about 34 hp.
And, the lower roofline is for aerodynamics more than aesthetics - the i3 has a lot of frontal area, and a kinda high Cd due to the boxy shape (at least compared to a Prius, anyway). (That said, the Gen 4 Prius’s styling has grown on me quite a bit.) Of course, that lower roofline would also demand less of the engine...
"AndyG_UK" (ajg1974)
05/12/2017 at 11:12, STARS: 0
Oh you mean the dirty ICE engine, yeah the i3 doesn’t need a powerful one due to you know all those batteries and it’s big 170hp electric motor with instant power which it runs on 98% of time.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 11:15, STARS: 0
The problem is, when you’re doing 500 miles in a day on a road trip - something I do often enough that renting a car to take them doesn’t make sense - you’ll get the battery depleted pretty quickly holding more than 70 mph. (And, the charging infrastructure situation in the US is such that, if you don’t have a Tesla, you won’t want to wait for a CCS charge.)
It’s worse in the US market, where the engine is forbidden to start until the battery is down to 6.5%, because they need the city range to be shorter on the engine than on the battery. In Europe, it automatically starts at 15%, and can be manually started as high as 75%. However, people do “code” their cars (by editing bytes of the car’s firmware) to enable the European settings...
"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
05/12/2017 at 11:20, STARS: 0
I can relate to the new car vs old vehicle juxtaposition. I have a 99 Dakota rt that I’ve had for many years. I lowered it back when I first bought it and drive it only in the 3 good seasons here in Michigan. I have since purchased an 09 audi S8 and that’s my year round daily. I remember when I first had my Dakota on feeling how well it handled and how much torque it had relative to other vehicles I had. I used to long to drive it whenever I could. Now since the newer cars, it seems so primitive and relatively slow. Now it’s more of a, oh I have to drive the truck to keep the battery from going flat, rather than I want to drive it. But it’s also a truck, and it fits a need when I need to haul stuff, so I’ll hang onto it. Also, I’ve had this one so long. I want to keep it on the road as long as possible. But I can relate to your story.
"AndyG_UK" (ajg1974)
05/12/2017 at 11:24, STARS: 0
Ok I’ll let you off then, that sort of regular mileage is not suitable for an i3 REX, especially a US spec one where you can’t stick it in charge hold when your on the highway (this is what my brother does with his) and you have already stated that having 2 cars is not really an option for you (we have 2 a BEV i3 and a petrol Seat Leon so the Prius is a good fit for you, shame you couldn’t wait for the PHEV version though. I am going to replace our petrol Leon with a PHEV when it’s due to be replaced (looking most likely a Golf GTE unless Seat stick it’s drive train in the Leon by then).
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/12/2017 at 11:27, STARS: 0
I love driving the new Miata I tested. But on a daily basis, I don’t think it’s the car for me. So, I understand.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 11:28, STARS: 0
2 cars is an option , although one of them’s gotta be cheap, and it certainly wasn’t part of my plan.
One friend of mine has been trying to convince me to buy an off-lease Fiat 500e, and they are pretty fun to drive. The direction I’d rather go at this point is 2wheelsgood, though - wait for Gogoro or someone to bring a decently powerful electric scooter to the US (I think I need more speed than GenZe offers, 30 mph in a land of 35 mph speed limits isn’t quite enough), and just carry the batteries inside to charge.
Also, the Prius Prime (what we call the PHEV in the US), now that I’ve seen them in real life, annoys me in regards to the packaging. The battery takes up a lot of the cargo area, while the Volkswagen GTE cars (we get the Audi A3 e-tron here, which is basically the same thing as a Golf GTE) and the Hyundai Ioniq PHEV have far better packaging with essentially no compromise other than losing the spare tire, with similarly sized fuel tanks and batteries.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 11:34, STARS: 1
Mind you, I feel like some of my complaints with my Miata would actually be reduced with a new one - torquier engine with a broader powerband and modern engine management, and altogether a more modern -feeling car (although I haven’t driven one yet). But, it wouldn’t be enough to actually drop $25k on one.
"Chuckles" (chucklesw37)
05/12/2017 at 11:41, STARS: 2
I split my driving duties between my 1994 1.8L NA Miata and my trusty 2003 Honda Civic automatic sedan. I totally get it. I love my Miata, and I’ve repeatedly driven it 500+ miles in a day. The seats are surprisingly comfy. But the noise and the wind and the sun get to you after a long day. And if I put the top up on a nice day, I feel like an ass for not enjoying my Miata to the fullest. It redeems itself fully on mountain roads and summer evening drives. I really do love it. The Civic is also fun in a way that the Miata never will be, solely because I don’t care what happens to it. It’s been through a hurricane. I bought it back from the insurance company for less than 400 bucks. That being said, I start to think about the logistics of a 2 week road trip with my girlfriend, and my mind wanders to a 2017 Honda Fit with a CVT that I recently rode in. It has how much cargo room? And it gets how good of mileage? The gears start to turn.
"96Formula6spd" (96Formula6spd)
05/12/2017 at 11:51, STARS: 0
Was there 3 days after buying my 2001 miata. I hated the car. Usually the new car love period last a few weeks. It might have been as short as 48 hours. I was actually really really close to listing it for sale and willing to take a $1000 loss. Anything to get out of the car loan that I have not even made my first payment on. Granted after 5.5 years later as my only running and driving car I have got used to it. I have also learned how to drive fast with this car. Now days when you ask me when I am going to replace it the answer is never. With 258k on it and bad paint its not worth selling. I will be the last owner of this car. It will probably end up as a NASA Time Trial car.
However right now I am really wanting a nice highway car. Been doing loads of travel and when it can be done in the Miata (I drove it 2600 miles in one week last year to SCCA Solo Nationals and back) I want a little more comfort. There are days were nothing is happier than hitting some on ramps or going to the mountains in the car. That or doing well with it at an autocross. Plus track days are always fun with it.
Granted it is not the car for everyone. Sounds like you have some money to spend. I will say screw car payments. Own something out right. Its a reason I do not have a C5 corvette in the garage. I would like to own one but I will buy it with cash so I can own it out right. As those are awesome highway cars that get 33mpg when I was driving my buddies C5 Z06 the other week.
So up to you. For me the Miata will be around forever. I have friends that will keep them for a long time. Its not for everyone. So time to change it up. I recommend a C5 Z06.
"TheD0k_2many toys 2little time" (thed0ck)
05/12/2017 at 12:24, STARS: 0
so basically because its at 4k RPM on the highway is why you dont like it?
I have driven mine like that for many hours straight with very loud exhaust and all it does to me is make me love it more.
They arent for everyone but they are the best fun for the money and reliability
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 12:42, STARS: 1
No, the 4k on the highway isn’t the problem (I couldn’t hear the engine over the wind noise anyway), it’s just... it generally feels like an 80s economy car, with 80s engine management, to me... because that’s what it is. And, apparently, I don’t like that any more.
"TheD0k_2many toys 2little time" (thed0ck)
05/12/2017 at 12:47, STARS: 1
ah ive never got that feeling from mine. but i also have an NB2
"Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney" (braddelaparker)
05/12/2017 at 12:55, STARS: 0
I’m sick of the noise in my NA too. Top down it doesn’t bother me, the car is perfect. But the moment the top goes up it becomes the most miserable car I’ve ever owned. I legitimately hate it.
You won’t get much confirmation around here for this post, so let me say that what you’ve said is entirely reasonable.
"The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!)" (steve-still-hasnt-wrecked-the-powershift-in-his-12-ford-focus)
05/12/2017 at 13:33, STARS: 0
Have you ever driven one with a hard top? My NB came with a hard top and it was a revelation when it was one. The car was considerably more quiet, refined, and it even seemed to ride smoother (maybe that top dampened road impacts slightly?). I basically drove the car with the hard top on or the soft top down, and only put the soft top up when I got caught in the rain.
That being said, it was a two man operation to take on and off, and I needed a rack to store in on and a place to store it on the rack.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/12/2017 at 14:01, STARS: 0
Yeah, NB2 VVT probably helps a lot (although it doesn’t actually show up on the dyno), and the engine management system to control the VVT is probably a lot more capable of smoothing out fueling, too.
The rest of the car, though... I’ve driven a NB2, and yeah, it’s still an 80s car at heart.
"TheD0k_2many toys 2little time" (thed0ck)
05/12/2017 at 14:18, STARS: 0
if it aint broke dont fix it haha. The tried with the NC and kinda messed it up
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/12/2017 at 14:20, STARS: 0
For me, its other issues, still the principle is the same A great car isn’t a great car for you if it doesn’t do the things you need from a car.
Honestly though, if you can spare the time, I recommend taking a spin in an ND. It’s worth your time just for the fun of it.
"Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney" (braddelaparker)
05/12/2017 at 15:45, STARS: 1
I’ve not, and I’d love to have one, but the two issues you mentioned plus the fact that, compared to the price of entry to one of these things, even for a very nice example like mine, it’s a kind of ridiculous amount of money to have to spend to make the car tolerable in a state in which I don’t really enjoy driving it (top up).
I’ve really enjoyed my Miata and I’m glad to have bought it and I’ll eventually buy another (crappier) example to keep as a track/auto-x toy, but I’m with bhtooefr that the Miata ownership experience definitely has a shelf life for me which I’ve exhausted, at least as a daily. On the plus side, that shelf life is about twice as long as I expected it to be when I bought the thing.
"daender" (daender)
05/13/2017 at 19:53, STARS: 0
Nah, I fully understand your reasons for not digging the Miata anymore. I’ll keep my ‘02 until it dies...and then probably revive it with Mini-Tec Honda V6 power. I currently DD pop’s automatic ‘01 Ranger because my left knee is slowly going out and it’s roomier than the Miata for carpooling to work. The Miata is a good college car but eventually I’ll need to get a wagon or small truck to take over full-time DD duties and have something more sensible for when the weather is bad.