by "Bytemite" (bytemite)
Published 05/09/2017 at 15:55
by "Bytemite" (bytemite)
Published 05/09/2017 at 15:55
Tags: Miata
STARS: 14
In short, the new Miata was kind of fun but definitely nowhere near as good as an NA Miata.
Over the weekend, I thought I would see what all the fuss is about for the ND ‘MX-5' and at the same time test drive the new updated and upgraded BRZ/86.
First up was the Subaru dealership. My visit lasted 5 minutes. I walked around to see if there was the exact car I wanted, WR Blue-like every BRZ should be-manual. There wasn’t any in that configuration, but there were a TON of automatic BRZs. There was actually only one manual BRZ on the lot and it was the series Yellow. I track down a salesman and tell him my situation, but he was busy helping another customer and referred me to the manager. I then tell this manager I’m interested in buying a BRZ and wanted to test drive in order to cross shop with the new Miata.
He then comes up with the dumbest response I’ve ever heard. “Are you gonna buy the car?” After giving him my best ‘Da fuck I look like?’ look, I followed up with the obvious “uhhhhm I would like to see if I like the car before I plop 30 GRAND on it?” He responds with “we don’t do test drives for BRZ and WRX.” Well, color me shocked. The two cars on your lot that would get the MOST benefit from test drives, and you refuse test drives. And then he says “if you buy it, then you can test drive”. Holy. Shit. What does that even mean? If I buy the car, then I can ‘test’ drive it? I immediately left and said “Ah that makes perfect sense!”
Same story with Toyota dealership but I expected the idiocy this time around so it lasted exactly 1 minute. Went around lot, saw bunch of automatic 86's—seriously, who is buying these?—saw only one manual, in some special edition orange color, probably called series Orange or something equally meaningless. Salesman came over and said you like the car? I said, well I am looking to buy one but would need to test drive it to see how it feels. He apparently had no idea what that meant, and said “You like the car, you buy?”. I really didn’t have time to go through this again, so I just left.
Seriously Subaru and Toyota, if you’re going to sell a driver’s car, train your dealership employees so that they at least know the potential buyers of these vehicles don’t just walk in, fall in love with the shiny paint and new Android Auto infotainment and pick up BRZ/86's like your toaster XV Crosstreks, and RAV4s.
On to Mazda. Awesome experience. I got a car guy salesman! I told him I have an NA Miata but would like to test drive the new one to see if I would consider replacing it or trading in my Veloster. I got to sit in the RF, and tested out the power top. Sadly, the RF doesn’t feel like an open top because so much of your rear view is blocked and there is a giant bar over your head. It felt more like a panoramic sunroof. It looked great, but definitely not for someone looking for true top down, Miata-life experience.
I then moved on to the car I really wanted, the Club with Brembo/BBS package. Got in, put the top down, and was greeted by open air, 270 degree view. Ah, this was much better. There was much to like, the direct shift feel—still had the good old vibration coming through that would communicate what was going on with the engine and transmission—the growling exhaust note, the progressive brake feel and extremely light clutch.
There was however, much to disappoint. The electric steering felt completely dead, especially compared to the NA Miata, and even compared to my Veloster, felt just as electric and synthetic. The engine had no willingness or an extra 10% it was tucking away to offer at high RPM. It felt like once you were past 4k RPM, it was going to be the same mediocre power from there on. I’m definitely no power junkie but an engine should make its power correlate with the growing noise and speed of its components. You don’t even need an extremely peaky powerband to achieve that, but it’s just about making me feel like I need to put in the work to get the most out of the engine.
Anyway, it is a worthy successor and the ND Miata is the one to get if you want a new car, have the cash, and want the modern look and tech. But it just doesn’t have the same raw sensory feedback overload only a hydraulic steering, cable throttle, 90's Miata can give you at road legal, puttering around town speeds.
In the end, it just wasn’t good enough to trade in my Veloster or part with my NA. The good news is now I appreciate my Veloster way more. It compared surprisingly favorably to the ND Miata in terms of fun and I seem to have the best of both worlds with these two cars.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/09/2017 at 16:04, STARS: 2
So you discovered why Toyabarus aren’t selling. No one will let customers test them. Stupid move if you want to sell a model that isn’t moving well.
I had a different, more positive, view of the ND I drove, but then, I have never driven an NA for comparison.
"Decay buys too many beaters" (decay)
05/09/2017 at 16:08, STARS: 2
Weird, totally opposite experience for me at Toyota. Saw they had a 2017 86 on the lot, hadn’t really got the chance to look one over up close so I pull in and just start giving it a look. A salesman comes out and says, “here let me pull it out for you”
I stop him and said “Hey, I’m not really looking to buy, I’ve got a 2013 that I’m quite happy with”
I still got to take it for a fairly lengthy test drive and had a pretty low pressure chat with the dealer after about the differences. We didn’t even “run the numbers”
"kgman" (kgman)
05/09/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 0
Weird, I test drove a new BRZ last year by just going and saying I was considering one in about 6 months and they let me test drive it by myself.
"Frank Grimes" (FrankGrimes)
05/09/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 1
Before I even seen a ND miata in person I test drove one sales dude was like yeah lets go up into the mountains. so we drove up provo canyon and took like a total of 30 minutes and it was wonderful. I guess it looked like fun cuz he wanted a turn to drive. the ND is a brilliant car and was really similar feeling to my NA.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/09/2017 at 16:10, STARS: 0
I find that dealers will often restrict test drives on certain cars if they experience a high level of joyriders. But the only time I’ve experienced that at a Subaru dealer was with an STI. Usually WRX and BRZ are fair game. It’s pretty stupid because there are plenty of other performance cars where nobody at the dealership cares if you drive them. Hell, several years ago when I was still firmly in my 20s, I showed up to a Porsche dealer in my NB Miata and got the keys to a Boxster S no problem. But noooo, the BRZ is a high performance machine, we can’t have people test driving it.
"JDIGGS" (JDIGGS)
05/09/2017 at 16:10, STARS: 0
Sounds like you guys are going to the wrong places. We test drove our 2013 when it was new in the Bay area here. People said the same crap with the sti and still do but I managed to get a test drive of a brand new 05.
My suggestion is if you really care, find one with used inventory of a manual transmission and go there. Thats your best bet. I think if you can manage to really test a used car out of your model that is the best way to understand it. A 2 mile test drive in a brand new car with 5 miles on it is a joke of a way to test.
I gotta say I feel your pain but I’m not too surprised. Mentioning a lot about cross shop or that you are really thinking about a totally different make is not inspiring to someone selling cars. They don’t make money for not making sales. I’d be a little more wise and keep that information to myself, try to seem a little more serious of a buyer.
"Corkscrew'd" (corkscrewd)
05/09/2017 at 16:11, STARS: 0
Don’t forget to consider that a lot of the people buying the BR-Z / GT86 probably won’t be able to drive stick anyway. That might explain the lack of manual cars at the dealerships.
That being said, the ND is still a really good car for the price, and the RF version is sort of a wish-fulfillment car on the account of many people asking for a coupe version. The fact that Mazda made a MX-5 Targa car is pretty impressive, since the last car like that in my recent memory was the Del Sol.
Still, it’s kinda sad that anything like the NA will ever exist in the USA again due to regulations. Unless you build your own car of course lol
"ateamfan42" (ateamfan42)
05/09/2017 at 16:11, STARS: 0
He responds with “we don’t do test drives for BRZ and WRX.” Well, color
me shocked. The two cars on your lot that would get the MOST benefit
from test drives, and you refuse test drives. And then he says “if you
buy it, then you can test drive”.
Must be a Subaru thing. I got the same line years ago when I was curious about the STI. They did eventually let me take out a “regular” WRX, but only with the salesman in the car, and he had to drive it off the lot first for some dumb reason— and proceeded to burn up the clutch starting in 2nd everywhere.
If dealerships are insistent on the “you can drive it after your buy it” attitude, then they must get enough buyers come in and buy on looks only.
"saabstory | fixes bikes, breaks cars" (saabstory)
05/09/2017 at 16:12, STARS: 0
The automatic is for people who want a “little cute sporty car.” It’s kinda weird that they have so many, but there’s a time and place for automatics, and I for one welcome our new automatic overlords.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/09/2017 at 16:12, STARS: 1
Agreed, it was as if they wanted to pressure me to buy on the spot just based on how the car looked. Like they had no understanding of what the 86/BRZ was meant for and what the people coming to look at these cars value.
They made the ND echo the NA in many, many ways. It is just that in the areas they couldn’t compromise, because of modern safety and emissions constraints, the new car has less feel.
It was a really good modern Miata, with modern performance numbers. But some of the feel you cannot get with modern cars are exactly the things missing.
"TheTurbochargedSquirrel" (thatsquirrel)
05/09/2017 at 16:14, STARS: 0
The biggest weak point of the Toyobaru is that the sales people don’t know and don’t care.
"nerd_racing" (nerd189)
05/09/2017 at 16:15, STARS: 0
I dove an RF after I bought my 3. I LOVED it. Granted the steering was nowhere near as heavy as an NA Miata or a manual steer mazda that I’m used to, but compared to my Mazda 3 it was down right pleasant. That gear shift felt so damn mechanical as it shifted, and the clutch was firm and exact (not vague and soft sprung like my 3). I really enjoyed the RF and the Ceramic color.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/09/2017 at 16:16, STARS: 0
I am in the Bay area. I went to Stevens Creek Subaru. Have you seen that place? It is the most run-down dealership I’ve ever seen. But you are right, one day I be more seriously shopping and will drive an 86 before making the decision between the two.
"Rico" (ricorich)
05/09/2017 at 16:16, STARS: 0
Here’s how to get a great buying experience when you walk into a Toyobaru dealership:
Step 1: Don’t.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/09/2017 at 16:17, STARS: 0
I haven’t tried to test out a BRZ or 86. They don’t interest me. But, I have been testing new and used cars for a few weeks now. My Mazda dealer has been very cool and low-pressure, but then I knew they would. What pleased me greatly is the used luxury car dealers who welcome me with open arms and cheerfully let me take their cars out alone for as long as I like. It’s in that context that Bytemite’s experience seems so ludicrous to me. It sounds like those dealers have no idea how to sell cars.
"Aaron M - MasoFiST" (amarks563)
05/09/2017 at 16:17, STARS: 1
Last car buying cycle I was looking at a BRZ, and got the same song and dance from the salesperson I was with. I basically told her “I will not buy a car I don’t test drive. No you cannot take a deposit, no you cannot pull my credit. Do you want a 40% chance of selling me a car, or a 0% chance of selling me a car?” She relented. I still didn’t end up driving the car, but that was because the used one on the lot had sat so long the battery died. In contrast, when I went to look at the 128i, the salesperson threw me the keys and said “have fun!”
"Out, but with a W - has found the answer" (belg)
05/09/2017 at 16:18, STARS: 1
The engine thing is mostly solved by the 1.5 we can get over here: slow, but it loves to be wrung out.
"Honeybunchesofgoats" (honeybunche0fgoats)
05/09/2017 at 16:19, STARS: 0
Oddly, when the Miatarga came out, I figured that would be the car to get, because I like coupes and targas, and it was the first Miata that really appealed to me. After spending time with a Miata, however, I can’t imagine that I wouldn’t get the convertible if I were to buy one. It has so little going for it as far as practicality that somehow the soft top just suits it in a “cheap little modern British roadster” way and I feel like that would be lost with the targa and it’s extra cost.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/09/2017 at 16:20, STARS: 1
Well then sounds like I need to find an auto NA to drive, because I thought the ND felt like piloting a street legal go kart.
"Bluecold" (Bluecold)
05/09/2017 at 16:20, STARS: 0
Hydraulic steering is decidedly not synonymous with good steering.
Most hydraulic setups suck as well. Only select cars offer great assisted steering feel.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/09/2017 at 16:23, STARS: 0
Very true too but I guess I should’ve specified 90s sports car hydraulic steering. My LS400 with hydraulic was incredibly overboosted that electric steering racks feel better.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/09/2017 at 16:23, STARS: 1
I’ve driven a ‘14 FRS (manual) for 3 days and around 500 miles (rented on Turo, great experience). I currently own a 2001 Miata and drive the crap out of it. I have also driven the ND Miata at one of Mazda’s test drive things (braking challenge, cone slalom, and “autox” course).
Anyways, out of the three I definitely would have to say the FRS is really the best car. I had the same exact problems with the ND and could not replace my NB with that car. Sure, the ND was definitely faster and had a nicer interior and just more modern overall, but it just wasnt the same. The Steering is 100% the thing that killed it for me. Maybe I could get used to it but it was so foreign to me that it was off-putting.
The FRS though I could 100% replace my Miata with and be happy. It drove identical to my car except it just looks better and the solidity of a roof is nice. While I love my Miata and I ALWAYS have the top down, I had just as much fun in the FRS except it had way more space inside. For how low the pricing on them will drop in a few years, I definitely could see me picking one up for sure.
Idk how you prefered the power in an NA over the ND though. I’ve driven an NA and my car back to back, shit was slow as molasses in a straight line in comparison. The ND is most certainly faster and that was the biggest selling point to me honestly.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/09/2017 at 16:28, STARS: 0
Wow, now I really must drive one of the twins. I guess if I’m being honest, the actual possible trade for my Veloster would be the BRZ. It would be funny to have an NA Miata and an ND. I may pick one up used one day far into the future, but then the same problem remains: S2000.
My NA is a ‘90 so it has none of the added weight of later model years, maybe that’s why it felt better than the ND, who knows. I also lamented to the salesman that they didn’t put the battery in the right location (Right rear of the trunk)...and that I would LOVE the 1.5 way more than the 2.0.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/09/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 1
Oh I should have included that as well. I have driven an s2000 for a few days as well (an AP2). I think it may have just been the example I tried but driving it around town was trash. I enjoyed it a lot when I took it to the canyons or even just going fast in town, but I am used to my Miata that is ALWAYS fun. For the amount of money that s2ks ask for, its just not worth the hype to me. A Miata is a good 8/10ths the same car for 1/10th the price.
My ideal garage would have my Miata and a Cayman-S but I could certainly see the budget route being my Miata and an FRS. They may be way too similar but it feels less silly than a Miata and a Miata lol. Ideally the Miata will get more track focused while the other car is a cleaner daily.
"Bluecold" (Bluecold)
05/09/2017 at 16:42, STARS: 0
You’re probably right.
Closest to a 90s sports car I’ve driven with hydraulic steering is Delta Integrale and that steering is downright amazing, especially considering the front wheels are driven as well.
"Not a Sunburst Miata" (moezsayani)
05/09/2017 at 16:55, STARS: 1
If you’re in the Dallas area, you are welcome to come drive my 17 BRZ. It’s got the performance package (Brembos, SACHs dampers, wider wheels) and is an absolute dream.
"CaptDale - is secretly British" (captdale)
05/09/2017 at 17:12, STARS: 0
Hmm, weird I am pretty sure my dealership does test drives on the BRZs. I have seen them out and test driven one also. Fun cars once you block off the intake noise thing under the glove box.
"Mr. FiSTer of Team FiST Fetish" (mrfist)
05/09/2017 at 18:24, STARS: 1
I ran into the same thing when I went to go look at WRXs. I don’t know how you’re supposed to buy a car you aren’t allowed to drive.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/09/2017 at 18:48, STARS: 0
It really soured me to Subarus for sure. Mazda on the other hand, has definitely earned my next new car purchase, even if it isn’t a Miata. It’s honestly such simple things like having employees that understand the Mazda way and relate to the customer that make someone proud to be a Mazda driver. They just get it and while it seems completely premature to color a brand by one lousy dealership visit, when that’s the only experience a potential customer gets, it’s damn important. So far Hyundai and Mazda has been absolute dreams to shop with. Subaru, VW, Toyota, not so. Maybe it’s because these guys are such big volume sellers and don’t have a real brand identity...?
"AestheticsInMotion" (aestheticsinmotion)
05/09/2017 at 19:36, STARS: 0
Yeah, Subaru in particular is idiotic with their test drive policy.
Funny, I test drove an ND on the track through one of Mazdas programs, and the first thing I noticed was how powerful, and linear the engine seemed compared to my modified NA8. I would still pick the NA any day, but the ND was a blast to wring out. Still had that “fun factor” of the NA and NB.
That said if I was going to keep my NA and grab an ND... I’d get a Fiata. It’s just a different for being practically the same car
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/09/2017 at 19:47, STARS: 0
Oh yeah the ND was definitely a fun car for being a modern car. It just couldn’t hide the fact that it was wire throttle and electric steering. Other than that, it was like a brand new NB with great mini-Jaguar looks.
As for the Fiata, I can’t get over the looks. Just way too much overhang and it’s heavier than the Miata. I would pick Miata every time. The perfect one would be a 1.5 L Miata in a true blue color. Mazda needs to offer their Dynamic Blue Mica on the CX-3 for the Miata. That color 1.5 L Miata would be impossible to resist for me personally.
"Vicente Esteve" (vicente-esteve)
05/09/2017 at 22:58, STARS: 0
Great assessment. I still wish so badly to own an MX-5 ND.
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
05/10/2017 at 04:29, STARS: 0
The thing that sold me on electric steering was that if you pull a fuse out...it becomes manual steering.
Manual steering, I have discovered, is infinitely better for feel than both electric and hydraulic power steering. On something as light as an MX-5 (NA or ND), you really should have manual steering. Seriously, if you get a chance to try an NA with the non-PS rack do it. So much better.
"duurtlang" (duurtlang)
05/10/2017 at 08:01, STARS: 0
If it’s nothing but a fuse you can wire in a switch, so you can have power steering in a light weight car the only time it’s somewhat beneficial (parking) and have manual steering everywhere else.
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
05/10/2017 at 10:41, STARS: 0
Absolutely :) that’s actually the plan with the MG eventually.
Best to have a switched relay from what I understand as they take quite a lot of current.
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/10/2017 at 13:55, STARS: 0
I have a hard time believing this is quite that simple. For every modern sports cars with complaints about the electric steering, if the fix was one fuse, why would people just not do it?
I haven’t driven a manual rack Miata but because of the slower ratio I wouldn’t really care for it, unless it was a depowered rack. The PS on the Miata is awesome and confidence inspiring. I get all the feel from it and when the back steps out, it’s just a flick of the wrist to counter.
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
05/11/2017 at 04:26, STARS: 0
I had a hard time believing it too until I did it on the MG F. Dead simple. No complaints at all.
With a modern car with traction control it might be a little more complicated, although that’s only a ‘might’ until anyone tries it. It depends on whether the steering angle sensor is plumbed into the power steering motor. There’s no good reason to do so at all, but sometimes automakers are unhelpful with that sort of thing.
I think part of the reason it’s not done so much is because the majority of modern sports cars are
really
heavy. Too heavy to have an unpowered rack, especially a relatively short ratio one. The only other sports car on the market really that’s light enough for a manual rack is the BRZ/GT86, and that’s hydraulic.
I do agree that you can get decent feel through a hydraulic system, but honestly. Just go and try a manual one, even with the slightly longer ration. Just try it. See what I’m banging on about :)
"Bytemite" (bytemite)
05/11/2017 at 12:27, STARS: 0
BRZ/86 are definitely electric. It would be nice if they were hydraulic though.
As for unpowered racks, I’ve only had experience with one of them and that was with the AW11 MR2. It was nice and raw feeling but I honestly preferred the hydraulic Miata rack. That MR2 was twitchy and would step the back out whenever I tackled a corner or if there was a slight bump, so being light and quick ratio was far more important. It just didn’t offer more feel than the Miata while kind of hindering my countersteer. But yeah, that thing was fun as hell. It’s not like a purposely powered oversteer which is easy to just bring back with less gas...it just suddenly shifted like bumpsteer but for the back wheels, didn’t matter whether you were on gas or brakes.
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
05/11/2017 at 19:26, STARS: 0
Yeah that definitely sounds like rear suspension geometry rather than steering at all, although you make a good point of speed of the rack to catch slides. If I remember rightly AW11s have rear suspension that’s either semi-trailing arms or approximates their effect with bump-steer (which can happen on either end, as with STAs they change toe as they travel up and down).
I get that it’s not for everyone :) I was just really impressed by the difference with my MG between a powered rack (albeit electric) and unpowered. Night and day in that car, and from what my mate tells me of his MX-5 it’s pronounced with NAs too, if less night and day.
Oh, and it’s not just power assistance that affects steering feel. A good chunk of it is to do with geometry, although I’m not sure how well I understand that myself. I think lack of caster aids steering feel, but is traded off with reduced straight line stability and less return-to-centre when you let off the wheel. Not sure what AW11s are like for caster compared to MX-5s.