by "Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
Published 05/08/2017 at 15:40
by "Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
Published 05/08/2017 at 15:40
No Tags
STARS: 1
Now that most “new” cars look like facelifts rather than designs, it feels like this doesn’t really happen anymore. Just look at the the dramatic transition between the E39 and E60. The former has aged gracefully while the latter is... well... a Chris Bangal design. The F10 that followed though? Perfection. Journalists criticized it for being too conservative but I think they’re gorgeous. Six years later, they still look like brand new cars, and the latest 5er is indistinguishable from the past generation if you aren’t a BMW nerd.
So Oppo, what are your favorite/least favorite redesigns?
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
05/08/2017 at 15:46, STARS: 2
I like the F10 a lot. It’s numb compared to the GS and the CTS. Who would have guessed 15 years ago that a Lexus and a Cadillac would have better steering feel and handling than a BMW.
But it’s a very nice vehicle inside and out.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/08/2017 at 15:50, STARS: 0
The GS is pretty numb, too. But it’s just weird as hell to me that it’s not quite as numb as the BMW. I still need to get behind the wheel of the CTS one of these days.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
05/08/2017 at 15:51, STARS: 1
I didn’t find the GS F-sport I drove all that numb. It was actually pretty responsive and had decent steering feel and weight IMO
"FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem" (fuelstratifiedinjection)
05/08/2017 at 15:53, STARS: 2
Golf V to VI is very bad imo. From VI to VII Volkswagen nailed it though.
"jimz" (jimz)
05/08/2017 at 15:54, STARS: 2
The 2nd-gen J* cars from Chrysler. The original JA Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze/Sebring Convertible, while not perfect, were praised amongst engineering circles for their chassis and suspension design, performance, and styling. The JR re-design for 2001 turned the Stratus and Sebring into dowdy, de-contented griefboxes which were little more than clones of each other. Then they did it again with the 3rd-gen JS cars (2007 Avenger and Sebring.)
come to think of it, every Chrysler vehicle Daimler touched got worse. All the interiors turned to shit, the Wrangler bloated up 700 lbs, the 2008+ minivans ate brake pads, and so on.
"Dru" (therealkennyd)
05/08/2017 at 15:55, STARS: 1
The latter has aged gracefully while the former is... well... a Chris Bangal design.
I think you might have mixed words, but I figured out what you meant. Bangal designed the e60, which to me, has always looks like shit. Dark colors make it more acceptable, and the m5 treatment helped. But the e39 and e46 were both wildly more handsome than their successors.
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
05/08/2017 at 15:56, STARS: 2
Cancelling the 4th-gen Monte Carlo was a crying shame. But reviving the nameplate and slapping it on a FWD Lumina Coupe is downright insulting.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/08/2017 at 15:56, STARS: 0
I DD a GS 350 F-Sport - but I also have an E46 BMW, and that’s what I compare literally everything to, handling wise. So maybe not a fair comparison. The GS is responsive, and the weight is decent - EXCEPT in normal mode at very low speeds, it’s way too loose. Feedback, though, is missing - - which is true for the vast majority of cars with electric PS. Mine’s a 2015 - wonder if you drove a newer car and it’s gotten better, though?
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
05/08/2017 at 15:58, STARS: 1
The one I drove was a 2014 model. Was comparing it to the F10 and the CTS at the time. Wouldn’t say it’s as responsive as an E46, or my Z06 for that matter, but the handling was nice for what it was.
The CTS was on a different level though. Full disclaimer, the CTS was a V-sport. The 550i was more numb than the GS. It felt very insulated in most every respect.
Only other large sedan I drove that feels nearly as good as the CTS was an SS.
It’s disappointing how numb most newer cars are.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/08/2017 at 16:00, STARS: 3
At the time, the 5th gen Prelude bugged me a lot compared to the 4th gen.
Mechanically it was very similar so it didn’t mess up the overall formula for the car, just the styling, and the styling wasn’t bad per se but not as cool as the 4th gen.
"Svart Smart, traded in his Smart" (svartsmart)
05/08/2017 at 16:03, STARS: 4
The Bangle 5er (E60) might be my favorite. The one that came after is definitely my least favorite.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/08/2017 at 16:07, STARS: 0
The GS does handle pretty nicely, for what it is. From what I’ve heard, though the CTS is on another level, even if you’re not in the V-sport. I signed up for an Cadillac event in July, so I’ll experience it first hand then, I guess.
And yeah, it’s really disappointing how numb most new cars are.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
05/08/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 1
Nice. Do yourself a favor when you drive a CTS and try one with the premium package - though they might have changed the trim name for 2017/8. The gauges are really nice in the premium version and kinda sad in the normal versions.
"AkursedX" (akursedx)
05/08/2017 at 16:13, STARS: 10
I think the 5th gen Subaru Legacy was a massive step backwards. It went from one of the better looking 4-door sedans out there into a turd on wheels. The 5th gen also brought forth the CVT, blegh.
4th Gen:
5th gen:
"RPM esq." (rpm3)
05/08/2017 at 16:13, STARS: 0
Have you driven a base F10? It looks nice but it feels like driving a well-appointed living room. Or maybe an E39 carrying an E34 in the trunk. It’s heavy and numb, is what I’m trying to say.
"Klaus Schmoll" (klausschmoll)
05/08/2017 at 16:13, STARS: 3
If you are trying to shit on the E60/61 I may calmly ask you to step outside so that we can settle this like men did since the dawn of time. Just don’t hit me on the nose, please!
But seriously, the F10/11 was shat upon for being a soft noodle. The E61 while being a far fatter pig than the E39 (I’ve logged quite some miles on both) still manages to hide that weight quite well.
The G30 is the first 5 series since ..... almost forever that gets the praise of being more of a driver’s car than its predecessor. That goes to show how bad the F cars were.
I’ve read forum posts of people regretting the upgrade and trying to buy their old car back, only to be told that their E60 was already sold by the dealership. (Anecdotal evidence at best, I know.)
"RPM esq." (rpm3)
05/08/2017 at 16:16, STARS: 1
Cadillac’s interiors are pretty depressing unless you really tart up a CTS-V, and even then there’s an awful lot of shiny, lightweight plastic.
"interstate366, now In The Industry" (interstate366)
05/08/2017 at 16:20, STARS: 0
The 4th gen definitely stands out. I think it fits in more with modern cars than it did when it was being made. The styling for the 5th gen was basically just “make the 3rd gen larger and 90s-er”.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
05/08/2017 at 16:21, STARS: 2
Agreed. The styling isn’t too bad but the shiny black plastic is terrible and you can’t even do anything about it because the climate control and everything is built into the shiny black plastic.
The digital gauges are cool in the premium though. Almost makes up for the shiny black plastic.
"404 - User No Longer Available" (toni-cipriani)
05/08/2017 at 16:22, STARS: 7
From this:
To this:
Worst. Redesign. Ever.
"OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars" (jakeauern)
05/08/2017 at 16:26, STARS: 1
Now I’m NOT saying I don’t like them nor that I would own any of them but after the FJ40 Land Cruisers have gotten too soft. If they had given us a Jeep competitor at any point I would be fine but I’m still looking for a newer replacement to a FJ40. It’s not design because I think they literally all look great but for purpose built use I’m still waiting. The closest thing to the FJ40 is the FJ80. The 60 is too long and the 100 is too big. Doesn’t it mean I wouldn’t at least try to use either for the same purpose still. Nope.
"itschrome" (itschrome)
05/08/2017 at 16:28, STARS: 0
See I think the 5th gen out paces the 4th gen in the looks department.
"phenotyp" (phenotyp)
05/08/2017 at 16:28, STARS: 0
Always appreciated this one, too.
This was
my take on the F10.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/08/2017 at 16:29, STARS: 2
From a technical point of view, by every metric it got way better.
Though from my POV, it lost a lot of character and I don’t like the new one as much.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/08/2017 at 16:33, STARS: 0
Noted! It’s the Cadillac Truth & Dare event, which a couple of people on here have posted about. I also want to drive a car with the mag ride - I’ve always heard that it’s fantastic.
"and 100 more" (nth256)
05/08/2017 at 16:33, STARS: 2
Regarding the picture:
It looks like someone put a brick of BMW in the microwave for 3 minutes.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:33, STARS: 0
Yeah that was another thing I heard in a lot of reviews. BMW essentially turned it into a Mercedes.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/08/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 0
Last time around (2015), between the interior and the lousy experience at the dealership, I never even test drove the CTS. A mistake, looking back.
"theloudmouth" (theloudmouth)
05/08/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 1
The F10 is a bloated whale though. I had a few as loaners and I felt like I was going to roll across the car in a corner like my grandma’s old town car. Granted, it was X-drive, but I mean damn how the mighty have fallen.
The biggest gen to gen fail is the E90 to F30 without question. 993 to 996 for hatred from enthusiasts. Biggest gen to gen increase I’ve personally experienced would be any mid 90's Japanese. The ‘94 Integra was MILES ahead of the 80's spawn that preceded it. Same for the Celica, Supra, etc.... granted, most cars made HUGE leaps from 80's to 90's, the E36 is one of an extreme few where the 80's car is actually prepared.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:35, STARS: 0
I actually had to google which was which but you’re right, the 4th gen really nailed it and the headlights on the next one aren’t as well integrated.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:36, STARS: 0
Oh man that’s nuts re: buying their old cars back. I actually spent a *very* small amount of time behind the wheel of the E60 but even then I could tell that the steering feel was excellent.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:37, STARS: 2
YES this is one of the most criminal restyles ever IMO. I think the 4th gen is probably the best looking car Subaru has ever made.
"phenotyp" (phenotyp)
05/08/2017 at 16:38, STARS: 0
Sonny boy,
lemme tell you something.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:38, STARS: 1
GM was in a real bad rut of doing that sort of thing at the time. The Gran Prix for example...
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:39, STARS: 0
This actually corroborates what my friend had to say about his dad’s old early model Cirrus back in the say. He said it was actually a blast to drive and had decent torque... until he totaled it doing teenager stuff.
"deprecated account" (savethei4s)
05/08/2017 at 16:40, STARS: 1
Most last-gen/current Lexuses.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:41, STARS: 0
We’ll have to agree to disagree I guess. I like them in M5 trim and as a wagon (which I’ve driven, a 535) but the sedan isn’t my favorite. I’d totally rock an E60 550i with a stick though, no complaints.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:42, STARS: 1
Yeah the E90 is such a gorgeous car. Especially the sedan IMO. And then BMW pinched it’s nose... no thanks. The E90 335 is totally the new supra as far as easy big power is concerned. I think we’ll see those on the scene for a long time.
"Klaus Schmoll" (klausschmoll)
05/08/2017 at 16:44, STARS: 0
Did it have the active steering option?
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:45, STARS: 0
I see what you’re saying, the FJ40 is a sparse military vehicle where as the rest became family haulers. What about an early Range Rover classic? They were pretty agricultural for a while before they became luxo barges.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:46, STARS: 0
I’m gonna disagree with you on the E46, I love the E90 sedan. But yes the E46 has aged incredibly well. And ditto on the E60 in M5 trim.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 1
I don’t think modern trucks are going to be desirable in the future. Yours is simple enough to be somewhat ageless whereas the new stuff is super fiddly in a way that I bet will look dated soon.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 0
The second pic is missing lol.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:48, STARS: 0
Nope just an E60. Though I have heard that the F10 is essentially a Mercedes. Realistically? I’m a weirdo who would rather have an E34 540i. Though there were something like less than 2000 imported into the USA with a stick.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:50, STARS: 1
Yes I’ll take an R32 please!
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:52, STARS: 1
More like a petri dish. They keep multiplying!
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:54, STARS: 0
I’m not sure, if that’s a sporty option probably not, it was someone’s family hauler. It felt consistently firm and I still remember how nice the steering wheel felt.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/08/2017 at 16:54, STARS: 1
Are you some kind of youngin who wasn’t around in the 90s? Get off my lawn you whippersnapper.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:55, STARS: 0
Wow I have completely lost interest in the F10 after this thread haha. Everyone who has done more than look at one seems to think they’re awful.
"SkyNet" (skynet-z28)
05/08/2017 at 16:55, STARS: 4
From a styling perspective:
Bad: 6th to 7th civic
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:56, STARS: 0
Agreed. I think they’re slowly transitioning away from that pinched grille but we’ve probably got another few years...
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:57, STARS: 0
I was -2 to age 8 in the nineties. So... yeah okay I’ll leave. It’s a nice lawn tho.
"RPM esq." (rpm3)
05/08/2017 at 16:57, STARS: 1
That’s what I’d have too. I nearly bought an E34 540i/6 last summer and another the year before. They might be uncommon but they pop up for sale fairly regularly. I had a manual E34 525i for about 6 years and loved it.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 16:58, STARS: 0
Absolutely. I’ve been getting into old Hondas lately and would totally CRV swap one of those hatches. They genuinely look sporty.
"OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars" (jakeauern)
05/08/2017 at 16:59, STARS: 0
Too unreliable. If you want spartan you don’t want to have to carry a million extra parts and worry about it breaking all times. If I wanted something I had to worry about way more I’d buy something newer.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:00, STARS: 0
They do pop up, but in my area at least the asking prices for a clean one are insane. As in 10K and up for a driver. Maybe that’s just a rust belt thing tho.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:01, STARS: 1
What is that old adage? A Range Rover will get you to your destination, but a Toyota will get you back home.
"nermal" (nermal)
05/08/2017 at 17:04, STARS: 1
The up-swoop on the rear door window of the new one is stupid looking. All other improvements are irrelevant.
"phenotyp" (phenotyp)
05/08/2017 at 17:04, STARS: 1
I’ve owned 2 E60s, and I’d never buy one. Most disappointing car I’ve ever driven.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:05, STARS: 0
Can you elaborate? A lot of people are saying the exact opposite, so I’m curious. I have heard that they’re a maintenance nightmare though FWIW.
"RPM esq." (rpm3)
05/08/2017 at 17:06, STARS: 1
This is the first time that anyone has ever made me feel good about Seattle used car prices, so thank you for that. E34s are going up generally so this may have been a mistake, but I poo-poohed a pristine one at $8000 last year, and an OK one for $6k earlier in the year. I missed out on a higher-mileage but still decent looking one two years ago that was asking $3800...I think the owner didn’t know what they had and it was gone within the day.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/08/2017 at 17:11, STARS: 1
I don’t actually think the Colorado is fiddly though. In that picture, it actually looks pretty epic—probably because it doesn’t have a ton of rake like most of them seem to.
But: from a driving standpoint, it’s better—but it’s more boring. The engine produces more power—but it’s waaay up in the rev range and sounds like a minivan. The interior is better built and (mostly) more appealing visually—but it feels more cramped.
Etc.
"phenotyp" (phenotyp)
05/08/2017 at 17:12, STARS: 0
Well, I think that review I linked sums it up pretty well. Compared to the E60, the F10 feels like a Buick. Interior felt cheap. Controls and touchpoints lacked solidity. Center console is overwhelmingly wide. You can really tell it’s built on a bigger car’s platform.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
05/08/2017 at 17:14, STARS: 0
From a pure design perspective I don’t mind the 7th gen.
"gmctavish needs more space" (gmctavish)
05/08/2017 at 17:16, STARS: 1
This seems like a good excuse to post a picture of my car
"marshknute" (marshknute)
05/08/2017 at 17:32, STARS: 2
Honestly, I think the E39 aged horribly. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a handsome car, but its an 18-year-old design that looks 30 years old. The E60, by comparison, is pig ugly, but still looks new today. Any non-gearhead would believe you if you told them your E60 was a 2017.
Lexus pulled off the same trick as Bangle with their new styling. You find it either beautiful or hideous, but the predator grill looks 10 years more modern than the bland styling from last generation’s Lexuses (Lexi?)
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:35, STARS: 0
Yep in New England those would be several thousand more. I saw a guy asking 12.5 for an example with 80K on it... and oh man it sounds like that cheap one was the one that got away.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:36, STARS: 1
One of my friends had the Canyon with the I5 back in college. It sounded sick! We couldn’t convince him to put an exhaust on it though... no surprise there.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:38, STARS: 0
That was a good tl/dr, thanks for that. I do remember being especially impressed with the interior. At the time I had no experience with nice cars so it blew my mind a little.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:40, STARS: 0
It’s true that the more angular stuff - from all manufacturers - does look more modern, but I’m not sure we’ll look back on this era with fondness.
"Vicente Esteve" (vicente-esteve)
05/08/2017 at 17:46, STARS: 3
Great question.
I think that the Corvette has gotten better with every generation.
As for a worse than previous gen?
I see the newest G30 5 series being even worse than the F10. It saddened me to write that, but I don’t know why BMW is in such a bad phase right now.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/08/2017 at 17:48, STARS: 0
I think BMW is trying to chase after Mercedes customers. Which is super ironic because now Mercedes makes more interesting enthusiast cars via AMG. I would take almost anything out of Affalterbach these days but haven’t been excited by an M car in many years.
"Vicente Esteve" (vicente-esteve)
05/08/2017 at 17:59, STARS: 1
It really looks like they changed their roles.
BMW still makes excellent engines though, but it seems like they don’t even know what is happening to the brand. They are loosing sales aren’t sure what to do about it.
C63 S is full of yes.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/08/2017 at 17:59, STARS: 0
Too bad. Exhaust is a good mod on those trucks. Especially with a header and some tuning on the I5. Loads of potential in there.
"TFSIVTEC drivesavolvo" (drivesaswedishcarmadeinbelgium-)
05/08/2017 at 18:15, STARS: 1
I think the E60's are aging quite well
"benchslap" (benchslap)
05/08/2017 at 19:19, STARS: 0
“Just look at the the dramatic transition between the E39 and E60. The latter has aged gracefully while the former is... well... a Chris Bangal design.”
Uh, you mixed up latter and former. The E39 was not designed by Chris Bangle*.
"CompactLuxuryFan" (compactluxury)
05/08/2017 at 20:38, STARS: 2
No no, you’re looking right at the Soltice’s replacement.
"deprecated account" (savethei4s)
05/08/2017 at 22:02, STARS: 1
Womp womp :(
"duurtlang" (duurtlang)
05/09/2017 at 07:57, STARS: 0
I agree that the E46 and E39 were better looking than their Bangle replacements. Having said that, the Bangle BMWs are the last at least somewhat decent looking BMWs made. Most of the BMWs produced since look (relatively) awful to me. The brand utterly lost its way.
"Dru" (therealkennyd)
05/09/2017 at 09:22, STARS: 0
I guess I can live with weird design. What I can’t live with is engine noises on the speakers, electric steering, no manuals (possibly one day). I miss the era of full-fat BMW’s.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/09/2017 at 12:18, STARS: 0
oops yeah I really did didn’t I.
"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt)
05/09/2017 at 12:19, STARS: 0
lol I see. that was actually pretty funny then
"theloudmouth" (theloudmouth)
05/09/2017 at 12:36, STARS: 0
I agree completely, though I am a bit biased towards the E92 (I actually agreed with you E90 vs E92 for the early pre-LCI cars, but I really do think BMW was spot on with swan song M-sport cars and I prefer them to the overly bulging, less clean lines of the M3). It’s amazing what these engines will make with just bolt on’s and that they’ll make 700+ whp with a big single on stock internals.
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
05/10/2017 at 09:38, STARS: 1
Remember the Tribeca that was really bad that only last a couple years
