by "Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
Published 05/04/2017 at 12:03
by "Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
Published 05/04/2017 at 12:03
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STARS: 1
In spite of renewed attention on U.S. airlines being hellscapes for consumers , American Airlines is working on making the experience of flying with them a little bit worse. Do you like space for your knees while being cooped up in a flying metal tube for a few hours? Too bad!
American Airlines was the first airline to roll out baggage fees in 2008. We all know how that worked out for the rest of the airline industry.
We also know that airline seats have been getting progressively smaller over time as the airlines continue to try and squeeze more people into the same size planes. This has happened in both width of seats, and the distance between rows, known as seat pitch.
Remember when you got on a single aisle, narrow body plane like a 737, and it had 5 seats in each row, and each seat was wide enough to accommodate a normal sized human adult? Ah, those were the days. But now basically every airline has 6-across seating in those same single aisle, narrow body planes. Hope you like touching arms with your neighbor for the duration of your flight!
American has a
new generation of Boeing 737 Max planes on order
, and to maximize the number of seats on the plane, the seat pitch on these new planes will shrink from American’s current economy standard of 31 inches, to 30 inches, and 29 inches in 3 rows. Oh, and when you go to pick a seat (which is becoming a less-frequent experience as now when you go to buy flights you are more often stuck with a “basic economy” fare where your seat is assigned when you arrive at the gate) you won’t know which 3 rows have the 29 inch pitch, and those rows will cost the same as the other 30 inch pitch rows.
As usual, you can get more legroom (a.k.a. enough room for a normal sized human adult, a.k.a. the legroom you used to get with a normal economy ticket) by spending something like $30 each way for an “economy plus” seat.
American is considering making the change on the rest of its existing fleet of 737s, and United is also considering a similar move. Great.
Here is the range of standard, non-upgrade seat pitch on U.S. airlines’ single aisle, narrow body planes, in inches:
Alaska - 31-36
American - 31-34
Delta - 31-34
Frontier - 28
JetBlue - 32-34
Southwest - 31-33
Spirit - 28
United - 30-31
Virgin - 32
I’m 5’11” with relatively short legs for my height, and I can tell you from experience with an AirTran 28”-pitch seat from before they were bought by Southwest, that experience was miserable. I usually have just enough room with a 31” pitch. I flew on a Delta 757 recently, and the configuration I think it was lists 31-33” seat pitch in economy. I must have had the high end of that range because for a regular economy seat it was gloriously adequate legroom. Such is the state of flying that being able to freely move one’s knees and enter and exit your row to go to the bathroom is now a “luxury.”
If history with baggage fees is any indication, we’ll start seeing that 29-30” base seat pitch on more and more domestic flights, the overwhelming majority of which are flown with these narrow body, single aisle planes.
Have fun in the friendly skies, folks! You’ll need all the help you can get.
"Nibby" (nibby68)
05/04/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 6
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
05/04/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 0
Can confirm. I have been experiencing the crunch already on newer American planes. The seat in front of me is closer this year than it has ever been. That bulkhead seating is even more precious these days.
"TheHondaBro" (wwaveform)
05/04/2017 at 12:17, STARS: 0
At what point do we consider it torture? I’m just over 6' and American Airlines’ seats in economy class are already too cramped for my legs. I can’t fathom having two less inches of no legroom. I also can’t afford to fly first or business class. Fuck flying. I used to love it when I was a kid. Now it’s just uncomfortable.
"Quadradeuce" (quadradeuce)
05/04/2017 at 12:17, STARS: 0
At 6'5" with a 36" inseam, I can tell you I avoid flying at all costs. It is literal torture. I pick the aisle seat, and stretch a leg out into the aisle as long as the carts aren’t coming around.
I’d rather drive in a comfortable car than fly, unless the distances are too crazy.
"Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap" (ddadragon)
05/04/2017 at 12:18, STARS: 0
I feel this is relevant for today
"The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock" (jukesjukesjukes)
05/04/2017 at 12:21, STARS: 0
I’m 5'10", I find West Jet is great in all aspects. Flying to Florida I flew Air Transat on a 737-700. It was terrible. The person in front of me also kept adjusting their seat too.
"facw" (facw)
05/04/2017 at 12:23, STARS: 2
Sorry, the 737 has always been 6 across (as was the 707). The DC-9 and its descendants are 5 across (but the plane is also narrower, so the seats are around the same size). They are almost all roughly 17-18" wide in coach. Normally Airbus is on the wider end of that spectrum and Boeing on the narrower, but it depends on how the aircraft is configured.
It’s too bad, I would pay a 20% premium for a seat where they installed five wide seating (in theory this would net the same amount per row).
As it sits, my favorite short hauls are on the Embraer jets with 2x2 seating. Those seats are still narrow, but with no middle seats, people spill out to the sides instead of onto each other.
I do agree that we are going to see other airlines follow suit with the smaller seat pitch. I can deal with the mainline carriers as they are today, but I don’t think they can afford to lose much, it may start influencing my decisions (I already don’t fly the Spirits of the world). There does seem like there is still some potential to shave some space out of the seat itself (they’ve gotten thinner, but seems like you could go thinner still without compromising comfort if you used better materials). Also if you are shrinking the rows more, you really need to take away recline (this may have side benefits in terms of saving space (for the passenger) and weight (for the airline).
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 12:27, STARS: 0
If I may point something out:
Remember when you got on a single aisle, narrow body plane like a 737, and it had 5 seats in each row, and each seat was wide enough to accommodate a normal sized human adult? Ah, those were the days. But now basically every airline has 6-across seating in those same single aisle, narrow body planes.
The 737, like the 727 and 707 before it (all 3 of which shared a fuselage), were always 6 abreast seating. The original 707 was 5 abreast, but because Douglas went for 6 in the DC8 they had to change to make the 707 competitive. The DC-9 was 5 abreast seating though.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 2
This. The 707 started as 5 but had to be changed prior to production because Douglas went for 6 in the DC8. 707, 720, 727, 737 and 757 were all the same basic fuselage, and all had 6-abreast seating. Always.
As far as paying a premium for better seats, I believe WestJet fits several rows of 4-abreast in the front of it’s 737's.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
05/04/2017 at 12:32, STARS: 0
Part of the reason I’m driving back east this summer and not flying. My wife thinks I’m crazy to drive.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/04/2017 at 12:33, STARS: 1
I may be mistaken but I feel like I remember 5-across coach seating in 737s and 727s back in the 80s/90s. It was featured in the original 60s-era 737 brochure .
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/04/2017 at 12:33, STARS: 1
I only wish that airline seats had no ability to recline. I always have plenty of legroom with all seats in the upright position. But as soon as someone reclines the seat at all, I have no legroom. Sure I can ask someone to not do that, but I am seen as rude for doing so. I have only complained when someone put the seat at full recline and I was just like what the fuck lady?? I think the adequate solution is no reclining seats, then the airline could easily get away with ~30 inches no problem.
I am used to driving a Miata so “plenty” of legroom means that it fits like a glove.
"facw" (facw)
05/04/2017 at 12:35, STARS: 1
Yeah, most US carriers have a pathetic First-Class section section with 4 abreast seating at the front, but it is massively overpriced for what you get. I feel like normally 3-4x what you’d pay in coach. You do of course get more leg room and some other perks as well, but it still seems like a terrible deal to me. Most people seem to agree that domestic first class is not worth paying for (unless you are lucky enough for other people to be paying), so a large number of the passengers are just frequent fliers with upgrades.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/04/2017 at 12:37, STARS: 2
Or, they could provide enough room between the seats to allow for decent leg room regardless of whether the seat in front is reclined.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/04/2017 at 12:38, STARS: 2
Second the taking away recline. Theres just no room for that on any plane. I wish they designed seats so that reclining it removed your own leg room somehow. Like the seat rolls forward as the seat goes back.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/04/2017 at 12:41, STARS: 0
Comfort is definitely the top reason, although you can often pick an airline (Virgin and Jet Blue) that definitely have enough room on all planes. The problem with some of the others is that while some of their planes have enough room, others in the fleet definitely do not. But anyways, the time spent dealing with delays and security and all that bullshit makes driving even more advantageous. As long as its not a greater than 24 hour drive, its totally worth it to avoid flying.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 12:44, STARS: 1
It was probably an airline specific option. The 737 was heavily influenced by Lufthansa, who wanted a minimum of 100 seats. To do that they gave it the same fuselage as the 707/727, which were 6-abreast aircraft.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/04/2017 at 12:47, STARS: 0
Well yeah but that will never happen since it costs the airline money. It costs them no money to not allow the seats to recline. It makes sense to me considering the economics of how flights work. That shit is crazy cheap really so the margins must be razor thin. I can fly round trip NY to CA for $300, even less if I pick dates wisely and plan ahead. Compared to the cost of fuel and all of the overhead, that is not very much money. I think we are at the bare minimum of comfort though really. Dropping space any further or making it any worse is definitely a bad thing. Unless they start offering standing room only for like half the price.
"smobgirl" (smobgirl)
05/04/2017 at 12:56, STARS: 0
I’ve driven back to Virginia twice from Denver in the last 4 years. I fly so much for work and I just hate it.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/04/2017 at 12:57, STARS: 2
I may also be mixing it up in my head with the 5-across seating in MD-80s. I just remember there was one time where I got on a Southwest plane and had a feeling of “these seats seem smaller than before,” and that they had added more seats, but it may have been after flying a couple Northwest/Delta MD-80s.
"NojustNo" (front24200)
05/04/2017 at 12:58, STARS: 0
Brilliant. Americans keep getting taller / wider.....and they make the seats smaller.
Many will *have* to upgrade or they won’t fit at all.
"smobgirl" (smobgirl)
05/04/2017 at 13:00, STARS: 0
Can I just say a pleasant Fuck You to Frontier right now? I’m 5'7" and my knees crunch into the seat in front of me. The only tolerable thing about that airline is that at least out of Denver the flights are always direct.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 13:04, STARS: 0
IIRC the MD-80 was a development of the DC-9, right? That would make sense.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 13:07, STARS: 1
Also depends where you’re driving through. 24-36 hours of good scenery is fine. 7-14 hours of flat-ish terrain and major highways--screw it.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 13:08, STARS: 0
Maybe they’re trying to encourage better health habits?
"Little Black Coupe Turned Silver" (littleblackcoupe)
05/04/2017 at 13:16, STARS: 3
Better health means taller people...
"E92M3" (E46M3)
05/04/2017 at 13:17, STARS: 0
Just another thing Americans have ruined. Not that long ago taking a flight was exciting. For some, it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. People dressed up for the occasion, the airline staff treated you well...like a customer.
Now it’s just miserable experience of obese passengers, wearing pajamas, fighting over armrests, rushing to board first, only to ask you to get up 15 mins later “because they need to get something overhead”. The employees are a jump away from suicide. If you’re lucky enough to fall asleep amid the chaos, you’ll be awakened by someones belly roll brushing across your cheek within minutes. I’d rather go to the dentist for no reason than ever fly again.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 13:18, STARS: 0
But narrower. 36" pitch and 8-abreast seating!!
"facw" (facw)
05/04/2017 at 13:24, STARS: 0
Well your second image is showing 6 across on the 737 (as compared to 5 across on an unnamed smaller plane). I’m not surprised the show a 5 across option for the plane, but I would be surprised if anyone took it.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/04/2017 at 13:30, STARS: 1
I included that page because the last paragraph says,
“Installation of a 5-abreast seating arrangement in a cabin capable of 6-abreast seating provides a roominess unmatched in smaller aircraft.”
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
05/04/2017 at 13:30, STARS: 0
I’ve flown a lot since the 90s, and the Boeings were always 6 across, and the McDonnell-Douglas planes were always 5 across (narrower fuselage)
Only aircraft I’ve ever seen split up was the BAE-146. Air Wisconsin had some with mainline seats arranged 5 across, and others with commuter aircraft seats 6 across for some reason—
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/04/2017 at 13:32, STARS: 1
Oh yeah definitely. I could drive all day on a nice back road with no traffic. I spent 12 hours driving the Blue Ridge Parkway once and it was just bliss. I’ve felt more exhausted after 5 or 6 hours on the highway.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
05/04/2017 at 13:55, STARS: 0
Well, the other part is that I’ll be there three weeks! My wife still thinks we should just rent a car. She’ll fly with my son, I’ll drive. I don’t hate flying, but long flights are uncomfortable at 6'4". Gate agents used to almost automatically put me in exit rows until they became “premium” seats.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
05/04/2017 at 13:58, STARS: 0
I have to fly out this weekend. Thankfully, most of my work flights are fairly short. I’ve done the Denver-NY drive a couple of times, and I don’t mind driving.
"smobgirl" (smobgirl)
05/04/2017 at 14:08, STARS: 0
I was in Truckee CA Tuesday and I fly to and from Oakland in the morning. I’m just over it.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/04/2017 at 14:11, STARS: 4
Airline profits are actually very high right now. They keep throwing more fees at customers and cramming more seats into the same planes while trimming routes to make sure as many flights as possible are over booked. All of this was done to offset high fuel process, but fuel prices have been low for years now.
"yamahog" (yamahog)
05/04/2017 at 14:17, STARS: 1
Eating disorders can also make you narrower, so by that logic these airlines are promoting ED.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
05/04/2017 at 14:19, STARS: 0
CRETINS
HOW DARE THEY
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
05/04/2017 at 15:20, STARS: 0
3 weeks makes it 1000 times worth it. Then you get to use your own car! I only can enjoy a rental if its something I get off of Turo that is way nicer than my own car. But that shit gets expensive. Shoving me in a shitty compact for a few weeks would be torture.