by "HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
Published 05/01/2017 at 15:16
by "HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
Published 05/01/2017 at 15:16
Tags: EV
; OFF ROAD
; dat unnecessary capitalization tho
STARS: 2
So with EV startups all seeming to follow the Tesla approach of automation and ripping off 0-60 sprints, the question needs to be asked...what about the cars that people are ACTUALLY buying; i.e. crossovers and SUV’s?
I mean, sure Telsa has that very nice AWD minivan, but truthfully there isn’t a vehicle on the market tapping into two of the very powerful market drivers right now, namely nostalgic off roaders and SUV’s generally.
Turns out at least one company is thinking along those lines, the Bollinger Motors “SUV”
No, its not actually made of cardboard, though that would be a welcome change for International Scout owners looking to trade up to something less vulnerable to rain. We don’t know what it will look like yet, as this is the best picture we have.
The look is intentionally going to be old school rugged; sort of a bronco/FJ40/Wrangler vibe. We really don’t have much to go on other than description though.
What we do know, courtesy of Car and Driver is that it will be dual motor, have “ class leading HP and Torque” as well as ground clearance.
That last bit thanks to portal hubs and 285/70r-17 BFG’s
Its fully independent suspension but they claim high axle articulation on account of disconnecting sway bars, and 10 inches of suspension travel.
Angles are great too at 56/53/33 Approach/Departure/Breakover.
So it will look cool, have genuine off road chops and be electric. About that last part; is it just me or does it seem like a really strange choice to offer a hard core off-roader with a very limited range and no practical way to carry extra fuel?
Lets not mince words, all the things about electrics sound great, you can drive though as much water as you like (so long as its well sealed which is totally doable) you have all the torque when you need it and as long as its well made the maintenance requirements should be pretty low. I mean RC cars have taught us that electric motors and dirty fun are great bed fellows.
Thing is...who is going to buy this? It doesn’t have the charm of the old SUV’s so the retro/hipsters aren’y biting, and its not like a high 5 figure toy is going to cut it for a lot of people. And if you are buying an EV because you want to be a responsible user you likely aren’t shopping for off-road cred.
I guess I can see some national parks or eco sensitive tour operators/organizations buying them buy the public?
What are yout thoughts?
p.s. personally I think this would be best as a range extended hybrid.
"Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap" (ddadragon)
05/01/2017 at 15:18, STARS: 0
The wheels on the cardboard one are from a Traxxas.
"Honeybunchesofgoats" (honeybunche0fgoats)
05/01/2017 at 15:20, STARS: 2
Do Jeeps dream of electric trails?
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 15:21, STARS: 0
Well at least we know they understand the joys of scale electric mudding.
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
05/01/2017 at 15:23, STARS: 0
In an electric off-roader, I’d have a hard time wanting anything other than hub motors. The idea of eliminating the entire driveline, tucking the suspension up neatly and getting all the power inside the hub opens up tons of opportunity for suspension geometry.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 15:25, STARS: 0
Yeah, hub motors aren’t quite there yet though.
"MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s" (mastermario)
05/01/2017 at 15:26, STARS: 0
I think an electric off roader with a range extending engine/generator would be awesome. But, I’m with you on the electric only being a tough sell.
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
05/01/2017 at 15:26, STARS: 0
Even if it was a hub motor with a compact planetary gearbox or even if it was integral to the wheel.
"djmt1" (djmt1)
05/01/2017 at 15:27, STARS: 0
Slightly related but for years I thought Mercedes made an electric G Wagon. It seems like the sort of thing they would of made during that period when they were making the G Wagon into any and everything. Plus it would of no doubt found a market in the tough perilous trails of Beverly Hills. That said (unsurprisingly) electric G Wagons do exist, it’s just a third party job.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 15:27, STARS: 1
I mean...who’s the buyer? If you want a toy you buy a SxS and if you want and EV you buy one for the road...I just don’t see it.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 15:29, STARS: 0
A g would be an interesting conversion. the trouble with these conversions is that there isn’t a great place to put the batteries and you are still left with a lot of conventional 4x4 bits (not that its a bad thing, it just doesn’t maximize the electric motors potential)
"PatBateman" (PatBateman)
05/01/2017 at 15:39, STARS: 0
Nope.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
05/01/2017 at 15:40, STARS: 0
I’m thinking it’s aimed at the G Wagon crowd. People who don’t have to worry about running out of fuel in the boonies because they can have it helicoptered to them or they never go into the boonies. It would be pretty BA if solar tech would allow you to charge the batteries efficiently.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 15:40, STARS: 0
nope thoughts?
"I have another burner, try to guess it!" (ihaveanotherburner)
05/01/2017 at 15:40, STARS: 0
I wonder how much more efficient EVa are off-road. I don’t mean emissions, but with ICE engines you have a, usually large, engine sucking down lots of fuel at idle and low speeds. I’d imagine the EV would use substantial less energy at low speeds and of course at idle.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 15:41, STARS: 2
Seriously if solar was efficient enough to keep a truck moving...even at a limited pace...All off roading would be electric. It offers so much.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 15:43, STARS: 0
Most of the crappy mileage I get touring is on account of the times I’m either idling or creeping a long at a snails pace. I think my moving average for my first day on lockhart basin was 3.8 mpg. As soon as I sped back up i was in the normal 8-9 range. However, I was able to pull my rotopax cans down and fill up at the end of the trail to get me back home...which I wouldn’t have been able to do in an EV. I guess I could have run a generator all night and not slept.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
05/01/2017 at 15:52, STARS: 0
Hub motors are not the only way to get the driveline out of the middle of the car...
There *is* with a hub motor the whole issue of reactive torque to worry about - you actually cut down on some options suspension-wise because the suspension has to resist 100% of the torque from the driveline *right at the wheel*, rather than being able distribute it.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
05/01/2017 at 15:53, STARS: 0
I feel like solar would be great with something like this, even if it only increased your range by a few miles. It doesn’t have to be something that can just keep you going indefinitely. Those few miles might be enough to get you out of a potentially dangerous situation.
"Frenchlicker" (frenchlicker)
05/01/2017 at 15:59, STARS: 0
There is one way you could go about it. Solarpanel on top and maybe a smaller generator in the back. Most won’t go off road. It there’s always some way to go about it.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 16:00, STARS: 0
Looking at whr/mile cals, you would need a LOT of solar for those couple of miles. It’s about 400 whr/mile so if you covered the whole roof and waited an hour, and it was sunny...you could go a mile...so long as the trail wasn’t hard. You’d have more luck carrying a pair of cheap AGM 12v batteries and a voltage reg that could be “jumped” from 12 or 24V. that gives you about 2.4 Kwh which would get you about 6 miles.
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
05/01/2017 at 16:04, STARS: 0
Some one needs to make an electric kit car that looks like an old flat fender Willies
"PatBateman" (PatBateman)
05/01/2017 at 16:04, STARS: 0
What happens if you run out of power out in the middle of nowhere? Will the electric 4x4s have low gears? Will it weigh more than a ICE vehicle, thus being cumbersome in the mud/on down slopes?
In my opinion, there are too many questions about off-road electric vehicles to warrant their existence at the present time.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 16:06, STARS: 0
They claim best power to weight, but given they also claim best power that also means the weight is high. I don’t see a need for low range...which is a plus in my book - No shifting, just going. Slow, go slower. Fast, go faster.
As for range...thats the killer. Lets say you get a safe 50 miles range, that takes you on some cool trails but it also limits you to out and backs, and the back better have high voltage charging.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
05/01/2017 at 16:07, STARS: 0
Oh geez I didn’t realize it was that inefficient.
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
05/01/2017 at 16:08, STARS: 0
MAGLEV all the things!
"BigBlock440" (440-4bbl)
05/01/2017 at 16:15, STARS: 0
There’s a way to carry extra fuel, fold out panels, like a RTT. Fold it out in 4 different panels, 5 times the area and give you shade while you eat lunch. Sure it only gets you 5 extra miles, but it beats walking.
Also, lots of peoples’ offroad is different than yours, and a day trip could be within range of something like this where you wouldn’t necessarily need the extra fuel.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 16:18, STARS: 1
Its a great thought experiment, but the money and weight you have to sacrifice to make it work makes it pretty impractical...even in the context of walking 6 miles.
"PatBateman" (PatBateman)
05/01/2017 at 16:19, STARS: 0
There’s something to be said about low range gears. I’ve been in some deep mud that would have put us in a precarious position if we didn’t have that alternate gearing.
If I ran out of gas in a Jeep, we could get gas at the local station and bring it back. Run out of juice in an electric off-roader, be prepared to tow it from wherever it is (hopefully not off the trail).
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 0
With gearing its all about wheel torque - 1st gear x t-case x final x wheel radius so if you can achieve the same wheel torque, especially at low rpm speeds, then why have em? With my truck as an example, I have a 2.804:1 1st, a 2.488:1 low range, and a 4.56 rear over a 16.4 inch lever. Assuming 240 lbs-feet at 1200 rpm (and ignoring TC reduction) I am looking at 5573 lbs-ft to the ground. Take an electric motor that can produce 500 lbs- ft at any rmp and reduce it by 9 (about what the Telsa has), then by 2 again in the hubs and you are looking at 9000 lbs feet with the speed control being entirely digital. It has promise.
"PatBateman" (PatBateman)
05/01/2017 at 16:51, STARS: 0
No, that’s a good point. I always liked that I didn’t risk excessive wheel spin when I had it in low first, especially when we were bouncing around, and a simple jostle could put my right foot all the way to the firewall.
My two biggest concerns are the curb weight and battery range under harsh conditions.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
05/01/2017 at 17:33, STARS: 0
Although, the thing with an EV is idling uses (almost) no power.
Another thing would be, a range-extended EV or even a straight hybrid could work here, too, to optimize the ICE’s efficiency.
"Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen" (distraxi)
05/01/2017 at 18:00, STARS: 0
That’s where range extenders come in. Series hybrid seems to me to be the perfect combo for off-road. All the advantages of electric drive:
* 100% torque at 0rpm
*perfect traction control - even down to angular position control for those really delicate bits
* submersible
* full torque vectoring (if you go with 4 motors)
* easy to design for redundancy
...plus range.
When off-roading you’re not on average using a lot of power, just torque, so a relatively small onboard genset would keep up. Give it just enough batteries to run full electric through a decent ford or swamp, or to outrun the generator for those “give it all she’s got, cap’n” moments, and it’s still probably lighter than all the transmission garbage you threw away.
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
05/01/2017 at 18:09, STARS: 1
I suspect that this is one place where the proper off roading commercial trucks will set the scene first. Think electric Dakar. They have the payload and chassis volume to pull off the range extension hybrid thing.
When you scale down to the Defender/G-wagen scale then you diminish payload substantially given the battery weight. And you also compromise handling, manuverability etc etc. Yes it could work as a range extended hybrid but more as a overlander/gravel grinder than an off roader. And even then your payload is diminished so you can only carry 300 kg instead of 600 kg (for example). You could increase payload by strengthening chassis and suspension but at the expense of more weight which impacts range and everything else...
An electric off roader will be more like a big Polaris or a rock crawler. Purpose built and without the compromises of a typical daily driver off roader.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
05/01/2017 at 18:10, STARS: 0
Good points, I forgot to factor in payload.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
05/01/2017 at 22:46, STARS: 0
Along with fleet delivery vehicles trying to cut costs i would think the low speed high torque would be a perfect match.
I think the biggest limitation might be the relatively low production numbers.