by "Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
Published 04/26/2017 at 13:11
by "Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
Published 04/26/2017 at 13:11
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STARS: 4
Its hard to look at Porsche’s lineup and not imagine that they would want some sort of car in between the current 911 and the Panamera. Yes, this is me doing my best Wobblesthemind impression.
I imagine two scenarios for filling that gap.
First, the Panamera gets a wheelbase and length trim. Becomes a modern 928, FR coupe, but with a better back seat accommodation than the current 911. 911 stops it’s growth pattern. I imagine something in size and shape to the Mission E but with one engine.
Second, they could transform the 911 mid engine car into the current lineup. The rear engine 911 grows an additional few inches to complete its transition to grand tourer. From a packaging perspective it makes less sense if you believe that even the mid engine 911 must have 4 seats; and conversely, if it only has two, then isn’t it just an evolution of the cayman?
But packaging aside, the second idea makes more sense to me. The first idea, you are going through all the growing pains of a new model like was done with the Macan and Panamera. Whereas with the second, the mid engine 911 carries enough cache and relation to the original that it would be fine; and lots of people have said the 911 is a more grown up grand tourer ever since the 996/997/991, so what’s a little more size and sophistication?
"Cash Rewards" (cashrewards)
04/26/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 2
I would love to see a 4 door m3 competitor from Porsche.
"Matt Nichelson" (whoismatt)
04/26/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 1
Alternative option: Create a proper successor to the 944.
"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction)
04/26/2017 at 13:31, STARS: 0
Yes.
"Nick Has an Exocet" (nickallain)
04/26/2017 at 13:33, STARS: 3
The problem is, the Macan is that car. People buy SUVs now.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 13:35, STARS: 0
Very true, except for ride height, the Macan is right in between the panamera and 911 in size.
"404 - User No Longer Available" (toni-cipriani)
04/26/2017 at 13:47, STARS: 2
Well, they’ll tell you to buy an Audi.
"Saracen" (manualdoucheelitist)
04/26/2017 at 13:49, STARS: 0
They have been talking about a FR coupe based on the Panamera chassis for a while. Though I’m really not sure if there is a place for it in the lineup, price-wise.
"Cash Rewards" (cashrewards)
04/26/2017 at 13:56, STARS: 0
Then bring back the rs4!
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
04/26/2017 at 13:58, STARS: 0
Yes! I have been pushing for a Porsche 5 seater fastback sedan for a while now. It would need to start above $50,000 and 300 hp (from 718) and be just better than the C43, M340i, and S4. In my head I see it going something like this:
Base: 330 hp (4-cyl from 718) - $54,000
4: $58,000
S: 370 hp (6-cyl from Carrera) - $62,000
4S: $66,000
GTS: 420 hp (6-cyl from Carrera S) - $69,000 RWD
Turbo: 480 hp (8-cyl from Panamera Turbo, detuned) - $77,000 AWD
Turbo S: 530 hp (8-cyl from Panamera Turbo) - $84,000 AWD
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 14:02, STARS: 1
Has VW/Audi been working on something that Porsche could take over? Hehe.
It’s not a bad idea, if the mid engine 911 stays in racing only land, you could put the 944 inbetween the Cayman and 911 size wise but still probably add a little to the 911s rear seat for GT transformation. Then the 944 takes over as the 2+2(without legs). Im not sure how it gets priced though. The original started just under corvette money if I’m thinking right, so you’d be canabalizing Cayman sales I would think. Whereas a 968 could start at $70ish, focus more on luxury.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 14:06, STARS: 0
In my head, it starts at $70k. Just imagining it now getting lots of flack for offering 440i performance for M4 money, yada yada yada,
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 14:11, STARS: 0
A small sedan fits along side the chopped panamera idea. You we’re thinking lower in price than I was.
"red014" (red014)
04/26/2017 at 14:17, STARS: 1
The rear engine 911 grows an additional few inches to complete its transition to grand tourer.
One does not simply “change” a 911... If anything, your 2 door Panamera idea would be the ideal grand tourer.
"nafsucof" (galinskiomatic)
04/26/2017 at 14:17, STARS: 0
But those flat motors don’t fit up front, they’d have to use Audi motors, or macan motors
"Nick Has an Exocet" (nickallain)
04/26/2017 at 14:20, STARS: 0
Yep, but in that segment, high ride height is good. Plus, the Macan starts at $47k. That’s a 3 series with options.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 14:39, STARS: 0
Tell that to the 991, which is now 8 inches longer total and 7 inches longer in wheelbase than the 964/993. Its wheelbase is even 4 inches longer than just the 996/997.
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
04/26/2017 at 14:45, STARS: 0
Darn, I was hopeful. Would have this imaginary sedan really unique in character and something special.
"E92M3" (E46M3)
04/26/2017 at 14:47, STARS: 0
Yes, they need a sedan that is 75% the size of a Panamera. Ideally sized between an S3, and a M3
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
04/26/2017 at 14:48, STARS: 0
I was too but decided to go for the minimum listed base prices since all the profit is in the options.
"Carbon Fiber Sasquatch" (turbopumpkin)
04/26/2017 at 14:49, STARS: 1
As Nick pointed out, the Macan is that car. Porsche was rumoring about a Pajun (Panamera junior) but looks like it’s dead. It’s a shame but I get it, the compact luxury segment is loaded right now.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 14:49, STARS: 0
They haven’t used them up front but that doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t fit, if Subaru can put a flat 4 up in front, I would imagine anyone else could.
"red014" (red014)
04/26/2017 at 14:52, STARS: 0
Yeah I get that, it was more a rub on the “how dare you try to make our car modern” 911 community. The prototypical GT car has a front engine (not sure why though) and I’m really liking your 2 door Panamera idea.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 14:53, STARS: 1
Yeah, the sheer amount of competition in the realm of the 3/4 series world whether it’s coupe or small sedan is crazy. It’s part of the reason I think moving the 911 slightly larger makes sense in my second idea.
Maybe they don’t need a new car at all, maybe the 911 is just ever so slowly evolving into that space...
"If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent" (essextee)
04/26/2017 at 15:09, STARS: 0
They could use a RWD Miata/BRZ competitor priced about $10k below the Cayman. Not necessarily a 914 revival (because that would undermine Boxster sales) but more in the vein of a modern 924 convertible.
That’s never going to happen though. The Cayman/Boxster’s entire target market is “people who can’t afford a 911" and if they introduce a model below it the Cayman becomes pointless.
"nafsucof" (galinskiomatic)
04/26/2017 at 15:41, STARS: 0
Right but they have generations of architecture that are designed around only fitting flat motors up front.
"Carbon Fiber Sasquatch" (turbopumpkin)
04/26/2017 at 16:02, STARS: 1
I’m more surprised that porsche doesn’t have a 488, 720s competitor. Make that the numbers chaser and move the 911 to a more gt style.
There’s a hell of a gap between the 911 and the 918 lol
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 16:28, STARS: 0
Matt above pointed at the idea of a modern 944. And although I think it meshes well with the idea of bloating the 911 a little more to make the rear seat usable, and then squeeze something inbetween the Cayman and 911, make it 2+2(and again without legs). As you point out though, pricing is tricky. I think it has to end up more than the Cayman if it has 4 seats.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 16:32, STARS: 1
Well, that meshes more with my second idea. If they introduce the mid engine 911 race car in a road going variant, that would presumably be their ultimate speed car. Could have a few variants. Cayman is the intro model, and then 911 is the don’t call it a GT, 180inch four seater.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 16:36, STARS: 0
I completely ignored the quotes in your first post.
Anyway, I’d rather see a baby Panamera, and the 911 stay similar in size or even shrink a touch.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 16:37, STARS: 1
True, and it goes against my notion of using the Panamera to shrink it down to a GT car.
"Carbon Fiber Sasquatch" (turbopumpkin)
04/26/2017 at 21:35, STARS: 1
Mid engine flat 8. 600+ hp
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
04/26/2017 at 23:13, STARS: 0
what I can’t figure out is when the whole VAG starts eating itself. There was the old tag “competition breeds excellence.” Its’ odd because Porsche is now competing with Audi, if they go upmarket grand tourer they’re competing with Bentley. if they go upscale supercars they compete with Lambo.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
04/26/2017 at 23:51, STARS: 0
Some cannabalization of one part of VAG for a better company wide share of the market might be worth it, especially if they are saving costs with platforms. The tricky part for the purposes of my thinking is that there isn’t a viable product from another part of VAG to borrow from that makes sense, to me, except repurposing the Panamera into something smaller.
But I think there is a pretty healthy gap for Porsche to move around inbetween Audi and Bentley/Lambo. Say they did stretch the 911 and put something inbetween it and the Cayman, they’ve got a lot of wiggle room until they’re stepping on the Continental GTs toes. Or if they brought mid engine super(ish)car to market, it could potentiallyhave some development sharing across company lines(although, 3 companies having different versions on the same platform would probably dilute the exclusivity of a supercar).