by "Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
Published 04/20/2017 at 18:18
by "Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
Published 04/20/2017 at 18:18
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STARS: 1
I’m seconds from throwing in the towel, guys. I’m in over my head with this car and have just run out of patience. I fear there’s something badly wrong with the engine, possibly crank related. The problem seems to compound itself with every fix I make.
It’s an ‘82, minimal rust, a fair number of repairs, overall in great shape for the year and model. Spent at least $10k over 10 years of ownership. Lots of spare parts, including a transaxle, and dedicated tools. Almost-there A/C.
You’ll need a trailer and $3500. I’m in Austin.
Yes, I’m serious.
"Grindintosecond" (Grindintosecond)
04/20/2017 at 18:34, STARS: 0
Hmm. Whose gonna LSx it?
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
04/20/2017 at 18:40, STARS: 0
Can’t you just put it away for a at least couple of months and try again with a much cooler head? Or at least wait until then to decided whether you really want to sell it?
Granted, you may not miss “this” GTV6 in particular. But I wonder if you’ll be able to be without one for long. These bloody cars are addictive.
And then you would have to start doing up one again.
"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
04/20/2017 at 18:41, STARS: 0
I’ve been doing that for a year and a half. Cannot get it to run. I fix one thing that’s demonstrably wrong, like bad plug wires or a malfunctioning coolant temp switch, and something else fails on the very next drive.
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
04/20/2017 at 18:45, STARS: 0
I see. Question: is the catalogue of horrors mainly injection and ignition related or you have other issues as well?
Would it be legal to drive if you converted it to carbs? Find an Alfa Sei engine in Europe with the right heads and the six downdraft Dellortos FRPA (or just the heads and the FRPAs).
Fuel consumption would likely be horrific, but what a rocket.
"JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t" (jawzx2)
04/20/2017 at 20:05, STARS: 0
read your alfabb thread...
this is almost certainly ECU... As far as the “clanging” double check your plug wire order... I put over 400k miles on my ‘92 164-s, and the Motronic does make diagnosis easier compared to the L-Jet, for sure, but the Busso V6 is fundamentally a very good engine and I’d bet dollars to donuts on electrical failure, unless you have a sticky valve....
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
04/21/2017 at 04:55, STARS: 0
Aww man, that sucks. Are there any Alfa specialists anywhere near at all (even if it’s not that near) who might be able to diagnose it for you?
Can’t believe I’m suggesting this, but if it genuinely is a detractor in your life it might feel good to replace it with something else that fills the same niche (but works). Unless it’s sort of like your white whale and you’ll get the damn thing running if it kills you.
If I was in the States I’d have bought it already :)
The other thing I’m thinking is that it could well be that many different parts are contributing to the running problems. A lot of people replace part after part and then when they replace the last one and it runs they kick themselves for not having replaced that one earlier, but it was likely that the plug leads and the ECU were duff so it’d only fix when you replace both.
What’s the list of the parts you’ve replaced on the engine and we can try and narrow down what it might be.
"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
04/21/2017 at 10:05, STARS: 0
There’s one guy who lives quite a distance from my home. I’ve been trying to get him to make a housecall, offering BBQ and beer plus gas money, but he really wants to be paid and at this time I can’t drop $1500 to get the car running (his estimate). I’m asking around locally for anyone who has experience dealing with Bosch injection systems, particularly L-Jet like mine.
Here’s the brief history:
Last year the car would begin to choke and stall after 15-20 minutes of driving. I took it to one Alfa mechanic who said it was bad gas and paid $450 to have him check it out, replace the fuel filter and drain/inspect the fuel tank, clean the injectors, and give it a tuneup. It died 5 miles from his shop and wouldn’t restart, so I have to pay $200 to have it towed home. After several months I discovered the coolant temperature sensor would essentially die when it got hot. That was a $6 fix, and the car ran fine.
I took it on an extended Saturday drive not long after, and again the car would stall, but only when I came off the throttle. Again, I went through an extensive L-Jet tuneup process and discovered my auxiliary air valve was sticking open, causing the car to run lean continuously. I swapped in a heater core that I could manually operate via choke cable. I also replaced the idle adjuster o-ring, just to help fine tune the idle.
After a few weeks of strong running, the car would simply switch off. Testing components led me to the ignition amplifier module, which is NLA in the States but available from Europe for $400, but can be replaced with a $50 VW/Audi module. Car started right up and idled in the garage for an hour, no problems. I also went ahead and replaced plug wires, as mine were original and sometimes flaky when the car was hot, and also the plugs and distributor rotor.
I drove to a neighborhood meetup a couple of weeks later, and the car refused to start when it was time to go, finally catching after I disconnected the cold start injector, then began bucking and stalling on the way home. Got around to hooking up a fuel pressure gauge and saw I was only pushing about 25psi, 11 short of what the system required. I replaced the pump but was still seeing a wildly swinging needle and almost instant bleed-down when I shut the car off. Replaced the pressure regulator, which seemed to solve the problem. Also discovered my O2 sensor was wrecked (the wire had been sheared off) so I replaced it with a good backup.
The car would start, but I was now seeing critically low vacuum - maybe 12" at idle. And now the car would stall instantly when I touched the throttle. Vacuum would plummet to zero, car would die. I figured I’d knocked something loose and began checking all of the vacuum hoses (which are brand new and silicone) and finally pulled the plenum to check the couplers and injector seals. A few of the injector seals were pinched so I replaced them, and also checked to ensure the injectors weren’t leaking. Compression checked. Timing belt, including cam markers, checked. Valves checked. Put it all back together.
Now the car wouldn’t start at all. Turns out one of the issues was the lead from the hall effect sensor in the distributor. The connector is totally NLA so I just used a couple of crimp connectors to fabricate one. Car would start, then instantly die, then not restart. Gas in the AFM and air intake, so I unplugged the cold start injector. Nope. Loosened up the AFM spring. Nope.
Cleaned and reseated every ground, connector, and fuse. Checked spark plugs were getting fire and injector leads juice using a noid light. No issues there. Checked TDC again and realigned the distributor.
"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
04/21/2017 at 10:11, STARS: 0
I think I know a guy who has spare ECU and AFM. It’s an hour drive over there but my boss is out today.
The clanking seemed to be the distributor rotor. The replacement I just dropped in is made from a cheaper plastic than stock and the keyway was chipped, causing it to wobble on the spindle.
One sticky valve wouldn’t seem to cause the total non-start or instant start/stall I’m experiencing. I drove mine almost 50 miles with a 10mm bit driver jammed in the #1 intake valve. That was a fun rebuild... I’m betting on something L-Jet related too. If it turns out to be the AFM I’m going to see about swapping in one from a BMW 6 or 7 series.
"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
04/21/2017 at 10:12, STARS: 0
This car is haunted. It’ll exhibit problems that one would assume to be L-Jet related, but is actually fuel delivery. Replace those parts, which did test badly, and while the symptoms are gone the car still refuses to run, now exhibiting new symptoms.
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
04/21/2017 at 10:37, STARS: 0
Well I can definitely see how you’re getting frustrated with it! Seems almost worth trying to track down a 3.0l from a 164...
So is it churning over but just won’t catch at all?
Do you have a can of easy-start or similar lying around? If it’ll catch with a little of that then it might help to pin down whether it’s a fuelling or a spark issue. Although both of them appear to be working there must be something that’s out of kilter.
There’s no possible way the timing marks themselves could have slipped somehow? Just thinking of David Tracey’s recent escapade with his Jeep.
Shall give it some more thought and see if I can come up with any other theories. You don’t happen to have a spare ECU do you? It’s relatively rare, but they do shit the bed sometimes...
"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
04/21/2017 at 10:43, STARS: 0
Without removing the timing belt I don’t know that I could confirm 100%, but the cam gears are tight on the cams, the belt tensioner is intact, and all of the marks align.
What makes the situation particularly frustrating is that occasionally the car will start. I think I will try pulling out the plugs after a stall and see if there’s any sign of fuel in the cylinder. At least that’ll tell me if it’s flooding.
This guy I know does have a spare ECU, I think. I’ll pick it up with the AFM.
Any ideas you have would be appreciated!
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
04/21/2017 at 10:44, STARS: 0
Huh. Something that’s just occurred to me. If the car starts, then instantly dies, then won’t start again. Could it be over-fuelling to the point it’s flooding? Car starts, drowns itself in fuel, wets the plugs so it won’t start again, then repeats the procedure once the plugs have dried off.
Any spare injectors around to test whether they’re still working as they should? Or could be something messed up with the L-Jet. How many adjustments are there to make on that system?
Have you tried starting it again since you unplugged the cold start injector? If so, how long had you left it?
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
04/21/2017 at 10:54, STARS: 0
Haha great minds think alike! Just posted the comment about it might be flooding itself, and not having dried off the plugs when you start again until you leave it for a while.
One trick I know for flooded engines is to churn them over for a looong time continuously with the throttle fully open to dry the plugs, but I don’t think that’ll work if it’s overfuelling as standard.
Trying to start it on nothing but easy-start (can you disconnect the fuel pump?) might at least tell you that your timing’s definitely not to blame, provided it’ll run for longer on that.
Something causing a deteriorating state of overfuelling would also fit with your previous thing of having to disconnect the cold-start injector to get it to run a while back. If it’s been failing for a while it’d reach the point of flooding earlier with the cold start, then be back into workable range when that’s gone, then fail further til it won’t run again.
Question is, what could cause that?
I’m not overly familiar with L-Jet unfortunately. Are you 100-billion% certain it’s adjusted correctly (and the procedure you’re using to adjust it is the correct one)? If so then we can rule that out.
So, it could either be a sensor, the ECU or the injectors themselves. I’m inclined to think sensor or ECU as it’d be unlikely that all the injectors went all in one go (you’d wind up with running on 5 cylinders before). Unless that pressure valve you replaced earlier was faulty (or specced wrong) so it’s providing too much pressure...
"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
04/21/2017 at 11:48, STARS: 0
And I just realized something - I have NOT pulled the cold start injector out of the plenum. Not in a while, anyway. It was out when I did the head rebuild a couple of years ago. I had foolishly assumed that disconnecting the harness would essentially bypass it, but if the thing is stuck open it wouldn’t matter if it was getting the signal to fire or not. This would also explain the fuel pressure leakdown I sometimes see. The gauge will drop inexplicably - and by inexplicably I mean that I’ve pressurized the system, clamped off the send and return hoses AND had the fuel rail out with each injector in a jar, with no indication. But man, wouldn’t a leaking CSI explain this? The gas in the intake, the flooding, maybe even the low vacuum if the timing was suitably wonkered ? I’m not getting too excited yet. Plenty of other L-Jet experiences related to burnt ECUs.
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
04/21/2017 at 18:22, STARS: 0
...I think you might be onto something. If it is chucking fuel non-stop into the intake it would explain lots of the symptoms. Seems to be a pretty simple test as well which is welcome when messing with electronic fuelling.
I await with bated breath!
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
04/26/2017 at 17:52, STARS: 0
One view is that you’re pot committed at this point. Do you know a (or another) mechanic who can look at it and give you an assessment? They’d have no emotional involvement, of course.
"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
04/26/2017 at 18:15, STARS: 0
There’s one guy who I’m actually working with, but he lives in another county and it’s a major haul to get him here. He gave me a few spare AFMs and ECUs to try out. We’re actually narrowing in on a likely culprit - combo of O2 sensor and AFM.It’s going to require a bit more patience and MANY diagnostic procedures using only a multimeter.