by "Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
Published 04/18/2017 at 17:01
by "Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
Published 04/18/2017 at 17:01
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STARS: 0
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"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
04/18/2017 at 17:05, STARS: 9
Subarus were never known for rugged durability. They were known for being a cheap way to get 4wd.
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
04/18/2017 at 17:07, STARS: 0
Subaru’s having shit engines isn’t exactly new news.
"CB" (jrcb)
04/18/2017 at 17:07, STARS: 1
I mean, we all knew they had head gasket issues.
"Roadster Man" (roadsterman)
04/18/2017 at 17:08, STARS: 3
The owners of older legacies/outbacks/foresters driving around with 200,000+ miles on the clock will want to have a word with you.
My WRX’s engine exploded shortly after an expensive engine rebuild, so I personally agree with you there. I will never own a Subaru again, ever.
But I can hear the crunch of granola from here, you are in for some hell!
"E90M3" (e90m3)
04/18/2017 at 17:08, STARS: 1
Wait so that engine that leaked oil all over my parents garage was a POS? That’s a real surprise to me.
/s
"dogisbadob" (dogisbadob)
04/18/2017 at 17:09, STARS: 0
They’ve always been known for eating head gaskets and poor mpg.
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
04/18/2017 at 17:10, STARS: 13
200000 miles and 20 headgaskets.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
04/18/2017 at 17:11, STARS: 0
they have never been particularly reliable....
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
04/18/2017 at 17:12, STARS: 2
They subaru’s I have owned from the 80's and 90's were wonderful. The ones after that had serious engine and brake issues. Otherwise they have been great cars. Subaru warranty has been the only saving grace here, they were not assholes about replacing the short block in my Outback.
"Sir Halffast" (Sir_Halffast)
04/18/2017 at 17:12, STARS: 1
Sooo... the point is to not buy a used Subaru built between 2005 and 2010. I think we pretty much knew that?
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
04/18/2017 at 17:14, STARS: 1
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the H6 engines have been pretty reliable, right? (albeit pretty rare)
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
04/18/2017 at 17:18, STARS: 2
This. Subarus past the 90s were known for cheap (but rally quality) AWD and blowing headgaskets...
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
04/18/2017 at 17:19, STARS: 4
That’s the word on the street, the H6 engines are much more durable. They also have the benifit of having more power will still returning the poor fuel economy of the H4 engines.
"Takuro Spirit" (takurospirit)
04/18/2017 at 17:22, STARS: 4
They’ve never been reliable. Customers perception has just changed. THey were a boutique AWD manufacturer that pretty much sold to people who didn’t own Hondas, Toyotas, etc in the past. So they didn’t know how green the grass was.
Now that they’ve gone all mainstream, buyers from other brands that are used to higher quality and fewer problems are the ones making the complaints, bringing the value of the brand down.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
04/18/2017 at 17:24, STARS: 6
my 2 cents? the EJ engine was designed right around the time that asbestos were becoming phased out (1989) and the old fiber asbestos gaskets were replaced with a material that wasn’t well studied and engineered. Subaru isn’t the only car maker to have head gasket problems in the late 90's early 2000's. However being a small manufacture a cure to the material issue was late in coming and most EJ’s made due with the crappy gaskets.
I know my Toyota is the same way, the gasket material just wasn’t made up to a standard that the old fiber asbestos ones were...which is why asbestos were so great to begin with. I’ve replaced my HG as a preventative measure and it was already starting to go. I think the large bore, thin walls and aluminum construction just accelerated the problem. New gaskets like cometic typically solve the problem. You’ll note that the Turbo EJ’s never had the issue because they use the sandwhich metal gasket thats common today.
As for the FA engines...well thats a result of trying to get fuel economy down while keeping AWD. Which resulted in aggressive friction reduction techniques that can result in inadequate lubrication.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
04/18/2017 at 17:24, STARS: 1
But they make such a cool sound...for a couple seconds until the CVT forces them into drone mode :D
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
04/18/2017 at 17:25, STARS: 0
It was really only the NA EJ engines that had the problem. The trouble is Subaru was BUILT on that engine in the 90's early 2000.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
04/18/2017 at 17:29, STARS: 4
And Subarus before the ‘90s were known as being cheap...and rusting. They have always been known as oil burners.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
04/18/2017 at 17:32, STARS: 4
I owned a 200k+ mile Subaru. They have a lot of miles on them because the people that buy them are practical and will fix the stuff that breaks rather than buy a whole new car. My 230,000 mile ‘91 Loyale was actually pretty reliable, but the original owner had already done a HG, and I replaced every seal in the engine. I cracked a piston on a ‘08 WRX. RIP EJ25 engines...
"Tripper" (tripe46)
04/18/2017 at 17:32, STARS: 1
I can’t get too caught up with “reliability”. For me there are Toyotas which I consider to be the most reliable, and Range Rovers which I consider to be the least reliable. Everything else is a wash for me. Different cars have “common” issues.
Knowing that I might have to replace a head gasket, throttle actuator...what have you, on a car that is out of warranty is just part of owning a car with a few miles on it. Just because I’m more likely to have to replace a head gasket on a WRX than I am on a FoST isn’t going to sell me on the FoST.
"TorqueToYield" (torquetoyield)
04/18/2017 at 17:35, STARS: 7
Short answer: Subaru’s reliability hasn’t gone down hill.
Slightly longer answer: anecdotes aren’t statistics, real reliability statistics are few and far between, things go wrong with every car but people feel the need to create stories if it happens to certain brands but not others.
And I’ll add: the head gasket thing just isn’t that big of a deal.
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
04/18/2017 at 17:38, STARS: 0
My first guess when this sort of thing gets brought up is that it’s a sign of the manufacturer cutting costs to maximize profit. Reliability goes downhill because they switch to different/thinner materials, or maybe they switch to cheaper suppliers, or totally redesign certain components to save material/assembly costs.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
04/18/2017 at 17:49, STARS: 1
My dad has a 98 legacy wagon with the 2.2L engine. It doesn’t seem to much down on power than the 2.5L but it has had zero issues since he has had it. Just the standard valve cover oil drips.
"Quadradeuce" (quadradeuce)
04/18/2017 at 17:51, STARS: 1
I’ve never viewed them as reliable. I see them as a lifestyle brand. Subaru owners buy into a certain image and don’t seem too concerned over the brand’s shortcomings. They are the only car owners who consider head gaskets as a wear item and talk nonchalantly about major engine work. If a Chevy or Chrysler had broken in the same way, it would be off to the crusher. And to boot, the company even admits it’s products are ugly (an assessment I agree with), so I can’t really relate to people who love them. But to each their own...
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
04/18/2017 at 17:51, STARS: 0
Thats good. I hear its kinda hit or miss. With the 1fz in the cruiser they say it could need a new head gasket at 150k or never...your mileage will vary. I did mine at 220k and it was starting to go. I can’t remember when Tim’s went but they all basically go eventually.
"jkm7680" (jkm7680)
04/18/2017 at 18:04, STARS: 1
*25
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
04/18/2017 at 18:10, STARS: 2
They have a lot of miles on them because the people that buy them are practical and will fix the stuff that breaks rather than buy a whole new car.
Yes. Having 200k or 300k miles on a machine doesn’t mean that it was a maintenance-free 200k or 300k miles. Mileage is NOT an indication of reliability.
"My bird IS the word" (mybirdistheword)
04/18/2017 at 18:21, STARS: 0
Changing company policy? Generally cars are unreliable for Four reasons: new tech that was rushed into production before it was ready for “marketing” (including fixing things that weren’t broken), parts suppliers cheaping out on things to make bids, poor assembly standards, and companies ordering engineers to ignore proper design for dumb reasons.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:27, STARS: 0
They were but it was more of a regional reputation. Subarus in New England and the upstate New York area were known for having durable powertrains back in the late-‘80s to early-‘90s.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:28, STARS: 0
Gulp! That’s one hell of a money sink. Glad you found something that was a better fit.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:28, STARS: 0
I wrote about Subarus. Not 40 year old Vegas.
"Boxer_4" (Boxer_4)
04/18/2017 at 18:29, STARS: 2
And more specifically, the ‘96-’05 NA EJ25s
The EJ22 never had the issue to the epidemic level of those NA EJ25s.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:30, STARS: 0
Yep. I still have a deep fondness for those models. About 10 years ago I bought a 1995 model with 249k on it for $500 at a Carmax auction. It was perfect. Not a single issue of any type. It sold for $2000 within five minutes of parking it at my dealership.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:31, STARS: 0
Your words to God’s ears. I’ll make sure to mention your real name if I ever write a follow-up. Thanks!
"My citroen won't start" (lucasboechat)
04/18/2017 at 18:31, STARS: 1
My Tribeca with the H6 mated to the 5 speed auto has been flawless, nothing but engine/differential oil changes and the odd engine scrub. Love the engine sound
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
04/18/2017 at 18:32, STARS: 1
Im certainly no authority on the mater, but Its a good guess at worst.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:33, STARS: 0
Yes. A four-figure repair bill is merely a pittance and 15,000 vehicles in a study on long-term reliability is not as accurate as an armchair quarterback telling us which way the wind blows.
But I will say ‘KeepJerseyDirty’ is one helluva good name.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
04/18/2017 at 18:34, STARS: 1
I think it may have been because people in the NE who bought Subarus didn’t know anything about cars. I mean, they were durable compared to American cars at the time, but the EA82 is not known for being a strong engine. The carbureted versions are nightmares. I bought a ‘91 Loyale a few years ago from the original owner. He originally bought it in New Jersey. Guy owned the car for almost thirty years and knew nothing about it. He sold it to me for $800 in immaculate shape because the engine was ticking loudly. I could tell it was just the valve lash adjuster (common problem on the EA82). I fixed all the oil leaks which cured the tapping, and sold the car a year later (after enjoying it a bit) for $2,500.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:34, STARS: 0
I may go for a deeper dive and if what you say is correct, I’ll note it.
"RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars" (rallydarkstrike)
04/18/2017 at 18:38, STARS: 0
Uh....as much as I loved and DEARLY miss my old 2002 Impreza wagon, I would not buy a modern Subie right now. Friends of the family have a three-year-old XV Crosstrek now on it’s THIRD engine under warranty.
My old boss has an Impreza now on it’s second engine under warranty.
As I said, I love Subaru as I really loved my old one, but having acquaintances with issues like that on nearly brand-new cars is pretty ridiculous, so I would definitely say their quality has dropped, at least engine-wise...
"interstate366, now In The Industry" (interstate366)
04/18/2017 at 18:40, STARS: 1
As a bonus, if you put an exhaust on them they sound like 911s.
"Steven Lang" (StevenLang)
04/18/2017 at 18:41, STARS: 0
Well done! A few years ago I bought the very last of the Loyales, a four-door in red, for only $100. It had all of 90k miles on it.
My friend just so happened to own a junkyard and gave me the fuel filter it needed to get back on the road. I think I sold it for $1300 to a guy who was planning on using it for a few months and then just abandon it at the Atlanta airport.
I always wondered how long that thing survived.
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
04/18/2017 at 18:48, STARS: 0
Lol, but seriously, Subarus are just as notorious for it.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
04/18/2017 at 18:49, STARS: 1
Mine was a really good runner. I kind of wish I kept it. I used the proceeds to fund my motorcycle project.
I got the XT wheels for free.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
04/18/2017 at 18:54, STARS: 2
You say that but when your car has 25k miles on it and it is burning 1qt of oil per 1200 miles traveled the reliability thing really comes to the front. This is not an isolated issue either. There was a class action lawsuit and Subaru has had to extend drive train warranties to 8/100 due to excessive oil consumption. Mean while I have an 11 year old mazda that has only needed a thermostat and two light bulbs it’s entire life.
"If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent" (essextee)
04/18/2017 at 19:04, STARS: 0
Listen, when you buy a car with an engine layout notorious for eating headgaskets and drowning spark plugs in oil, and with a drivetrain that kills transmissions, you are not allowed to complain when it breaks down.
Subaru has always had reliability issues. This is not a new thing.
"TorqueToYield" (torquetoyield)
04/18/2017 at 19:17, STARS: 1
It’s not four figures. I’ve replaced the head gaskets on my Subaru. It’s a couple hundred dollars when you do the timing belt. I didn’t want to get into it because it’s been discussed ad nauseum over and over but here we go. The 2.5 na from 2002 or so to 2004 or so will need them after about 75k miles. They leak coolant externally and if you top off the coolant once in awhile you can ignore them for a long long time. They’re easy to get to you can replace them with the engine still in the bay or do them with timing belt service. At that point they’ll let another 75k or more. So no, not a big deal.
I didn’t look at your red graphs long enough to really care if you took into account statistical significance, survivorship bias, root cause failure, or magnitude of failure but your defensive response to my reasonable comment makes me not care even more.
Here’s some more anecdotes for you: of six people I know with a Honda every single one has automatic transmission failure stranding them on the side of the road and leaving them with 2k repair bills. But I’m sure you wouldn’t hesitate to recommend Hondas as reliable. More anecdotes - I had my 2.5 na 2004 Subaru for 8 years and 150k miles and it needed head gaskets and a new exhaust after rusting out but never left me stranded and always started.
I’m glad you like my silly user name. If you’re ever in Jersey stay out of the left lane, the truck lanes on the turnpike always move faster and weaving in and out of traffic gets you no where because there’s just more traffic ahead. Cheers.
"TorqueToYield" (torquetoyield)
04/18/2017 at 19:25, STARS: 1
Some of their engines have, er quirks. But their weird flat engines have always had quirks. That’s more my point. Theyve always had middling reliability but they tend to not leave you stranded and maybe run poorly but run poorly for a long time. And while burning a quart every 1k miles sucks it doesn’t leave you on the side of the road.
"OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars" (jakeauern)
04/18/2017 at 19:30, STARS: 2
EHhh the Honda anecdote is known. Most car guys know “those” years of a brand not to buy. For hondas it’s autos from 2000-2003 or so. For Toyota it’s 2007-2008. For BMW it’s every single year they’ve and been made. It’s just phases manufacturers go through.
"brianbrannon" (brianbrannon)
04/18/2017 at 20:15, STARS: 1
We have at least three engines in pieces at all times in my Subaru dealership. I have done more engines and headgaskets in one year at Subaru than the 14 years before that. And anyone telling you that it was a couple hundred more with the timing belt is on crack
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
04/18/2017 at 21:27, STARS: 0
I had an H6 loaner while getting my short block replaced. It sounded so good. Quiet inside though. I had the windows open and my foot in it most of the time I had it.
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
04/18/2017 at 21:29, STARS: 0
It’s amazing how long you can ignore those valve covers too. A coworker of mine has a 2.2 Legacy wagon that has been leaking/smoking around the covers for like 5 years now and it hasn’t broken down.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
04/18/2017 at 21:44, STARS: 1
They don’t leak that much it’s just a minor nuisance. I remember having the two small oil spots on my driveway about 2 feet apart for the 5 years I had my XT.
"briannutter1" (briannutter1)
04/19/2017 at 20:16, STARS: 0
I’ve owned an 03 wrx wagon and ‘11 wrx as well. Not particularly good cars. Could maybe say well built but cheaply components and processes used everywhere. The Ej has never been a very good motor long term. Was the only choice for a quick car that could deal with Cleveland winter though in those years.