Driver Aids Are Actually Good

by "Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
Published 04/11/2017 at 20:14

Tags: BMW ; safetey ; driver aids ; BMW CCA ; Driving
STARS: 4

So, I’ve just made it through the utter travesty that is the comment section under the hand-wring-y article about how one chapter of the BMW CCA has (misguidedly) banned cars with driver aids from participating in track days. Needless to say, the opinions on this range from misguided to literal insanity.

1. You are not better than any ABS system built in the lifetimes of pretty much all the users of this site. If you think you are, you’re delusional and an idiot. And you need to either learn to drive or see a doctor. If I have to read one more comment about how someone is basically the next Senna but was “almost killed because the ABS threw them off” I will lose my mind too.

2. Accidents, injuries and deaths related to road incidents have been going down every single year for a long, long time despite the rapid increase in number of cars and number of drivers, and also despite our absolute dog-shit driver’s ed system. Do you know why that is? It’s not because you made a comment on Jalopnik about how great manual transmissions are. It’s because modern cars are so well designed and so safe, it’s hard to even get in an accident these days, let alone get yourself hurt or killed in one. This is exactly due to the advances in tech present in driver aid systems, tires, chassis design, and active/passive safety features. This is quite literally not up for debate. If you disagree, you’re wrong, and again I will refer you to a psychologist to handle your delusions.

3. There is no law forcing you to use driver aids. There is nothing at all...except yourself. I am as loud a voice as any pushing back against mandatory anything by the government...but you sure as hell don’t have to use them if you feel you’re somehow slightly better than Sebastian Loeb & Michael Schumacher combined.

4. Yes, of course, these systems incentivize people to drive poorly, perhaps, maybe...wait, do they? I have yet to see any evidence that draws a straight line here. Perhaps because there’s simply not enough time under the belt yet. Regardless...who cares? Most people could not be bothered to operate a car decently anyway. YOUR CHOICE IS NOT DRIVER AIDS & SHITTY DRIVERS OR NO DRIVER AIDS AND SHIT DRIVERS. Your choice is no driver aids, shitty drivers, and a massive spike in death and destruction (Including you, by the way, when one of these clueless idiots hits you) or driver aids, shitty drivers, and at least a set of tools to mitigate the impact these people will have. There is no magical third choice where everyone becomes Senna once you take away driver aids. Again...if you disagree, you’re wrong. Plenty of studies have been done to show the propensity of people to be shitty, distracted drivers. And it’s been going on since the wheel was invented.

5. There is no reason for this rule to have been implemented, as all these systems are easy to defeat. BMW CCA even condemned the decision themselves. Acting as if this is some sort of seismic shit in the enthusiast world is silly and reactive, not based on fact. We will learn to deal with this stuff just like we dealt with everything else. I’m sure this will change very soon.

This isn’t directed at anyone on here specifically, but seeing as the entire comment section is just a mess of people loudly spouting complete falsehoods, I felt compelled to write something in response...even if no one sees it. I own an E28 and an E60...I have both sides of the fence covered.

Have a BMW for your troubles.

Replies (32)

"Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap" (ddadragon)
04/11/2017 at 20:29, STARS: 3

Well yes but they’re Internet commenters. Your wonderful, logical post means nothing to them.

"Margin Of Error" (marginoferror)
04/11/2017 at 20:32, STARS: 0

Real Jalops heel n’ toe their way to the grocery store with all the expertise and attention required to operate a manual transmission.

"Bytemite" (bytemite)
04/11/2017 at 20:38, STARS: 0

Isn’t the whole issue about not being able to disable driver aids that were definitely not designed for racing? I don’t know what the BMW CCA comments are but I would think they are concerned about the inability to enforce the disabling of the driver aids and/or the safety implications that a suddenly—without driver input—braking vehicle has on the track.

Who the heck really said they were better than ABS?

"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
04/11/2017 at 20:42, STARS: 2

This is what happens when you stare into the abyss of the FP comment section. Facts don’t matter, I just know what’s right and what’s not, hur hur hur!

These are the same people that will tell you that a 57 Chevy is safer than a new Chevy because there’s more metal to protect you in a crash. They aren’t even clued in that the new car actually weighs 600 pounds more than the old one. They’re hopeless.

"plak424" (plak424)
04/11/2017 at 20:44, STARS: 1

I agree with this post. I auto-x my speed3 and would run with all the driver aids off. Then I forgot to do the special procedure to turn off ABS and the boost limit in 1st/2nd gear and magically got faster.

"TorqueToYield" (torquetoyield)
04/11/2017 at 20:46, STARS: 2

I got eyesight on the Outback. I like it. I leave the annoying stuff off (lane departure warning I’m looking at you). Lane assist is ok for long highway drives. Automatic cruise control is amazing for stop and go traffic or relaxed long highway drives - took me a bit to trust it to come to a complete stop but it makes 10-25mph stop and go traffic almost too relaxing. Not being able to rear end somebody is an added bonus. As it’s easy to turn on and off with a button or two.

Really I want everybody else to have it. Incredibly scary how many people aren’t even looking at the road when they drive but staring at phones. Insurance companies are pushing for it to be standard equipment for a reason.

"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
04/11/2017 at 20:50, STARS: 2

Good post, although two pedantic comments:

You are not better than any ABS system built in the lifetimes of pretty much all the users of this site. If you think you are, you’re delusional and an idiot.

AFAIK, some of the late 80s/early 90s (so within the lifetime of a huge percentage of the site, AFAIK) American ABS systems were woefully bad, and legitimately worse than no ABS. Of course, the braking systems on those cars were themselves woefully bad, and you were probably going to crash anyway, but hey.

Also, in off-roading, ABS is sometimes a liability, because you want the locked wheels to dig into gravel/mud/snow. ABS systems capable of coping with that are a rather new thing.

There is no magical third choice where everyone becomes Senna once you take away driver aids.

Well, but there is a magical third choice where you don’t have shitty drivers, but it’s not a popular one: http://gizmodo.com/ban-cars-1737654991

"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
04/11/2017 at 20:54, STARS: 2

...these systems incentivize people to drive poorly, perhaps, maybe...wait, do they? I have yet to see any evidence that draws a straight line here. Perhaps because there’s simply not enough time under the belt yet.

That’s a societal matter that you’d be hard-pressed to find solid evidence to draw that straight line. But I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to infer that in today’s world, people are constantly looking for new ways to multitask behind the wheel. And the idea that their car could brake for them in a emergency is something that makes them comfortable. Too comfortable, IMO.

To make matters worse, that kind of safety technology is being pushed by automakers as a selling point. Sure, it would be much more effective to overhaul driver education and licensing standards, but that’s not the automaker’s problem. They’re in the business of selling cars.

There’s no direct incentivization to drive poorly. That happens naturally thanks to the bar being set so low for operating a motor vehicle. Very few people voluntarily hold themselves to a higher standard, and that’s why road safety is an issue in the first place.

"Flavien Vidal" (flyingfrenchy)
04/11/2017 at 21:05, STARS: 1

ABS is useful when daily driving as it allows the driver to just stomp of the brakes in emergency. It’s not at a racetrack and YES, I am better than modern ABS on track (and before anyone jumps on me, I’m sure a 488 GTB’s ABS is better than I am... Sadly we are talking about more regular cars here). It will take me a few laps to nail the braking on each particular corner, but with practice I will outbrake lotsof people who just jumps on their brakes solely relaying on ABS. Brake size and tires are much more important for braking strength than ABS ever will be.

Concerning driver aids in general... I genuinely think driving older cars, often powerful, with no driver aids, helped me become a better driver. Why? Because I’m not an idiot. I’m alsways aware the car I drive can bite me in the ass in not time and that risk is why I don’t do stuff with the cars I know that I won’t go away with... I’ve also driven very fast modern cars that allow you to mash on the throttle on corner exit without anything happening. And indeed nothing happens... But who is the safer driver? The guy who has learn to modulate the throttle on corner exit to maximize grip while staying safe, or the guy who just crush the accelerator to the floor because it’s fine?

Concerning BMWCCA, the problem is not with BMW. BMW can have those safety features disabled. But not only BMW are driven there and some other manufacturers can’t have it disabled. And a group of cars riding closely to each other with one car suddenly braking for the sole reason that it gets too close from the car in front, is a potential danger, whether you want it or not... Yes, a global ban is stupid and singleing out the cars that can’t have the safety disabled would be smarter, but then again, people might forget to press the disable button and BMWCCA can’t check every car before they go on the track, every signle time (most of those features are set on automatically when you turn on the car... it’s easy to forget to disable it)

All in all, you seem to have very strong opinions without much experience to back that up... The ABS part of your post is quite appalling for that.

"TheTurbochargedSquirrel" (thatsquirrel)
04/11/2017 at 21:29, STARS: 0

The issue with cars with the lane keep and crash avoidance systems is that those systems take away control from the driver. There is no way to know how they are going to react to being on a track. You have no idea when they are going to decide to kick in and what they might do when they do. That makes them a massive safety risk in a track environment. That is why HPDE events are starting to ban cars with these types of systems.

Automatic safety equipment has it’s place as a safety net but I have seen people driving down the highway relying on their adaptive cruse control and lane keep assist to keep them from crashing. People stop paying attention when they don’t think they need to because the car is going to save them.

"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
04/11/2017 at 23:35, STARS: 1

“dude cars are so much faster with tc and abs off” spoken by bro with 2 dui’s to me

"TheD0k_2many toys 2little time" (thed0ck)
04/12/2017 at 00:24, STARS: 0

NOPE DRIVER AIDS ARE BAD. I DONT LIKE THEM. that’s why I buy old cars

"pip bip - choose Corrour" (hhgttg69)
04/12/2017 at 06:30, STARS: 0

driver aids suck!

far too much technology in cars today,ban all driver aids.

"ateamfan42" (ateamfan42)
04/12/2017 at 11:06, STARS: 1

It will take me a few laps to nail the braking on each particular corner, but with practice I will outbrake lotsof people who just jumps on their brakes solely relaying on ABS.

That’s not really saying you are better than ABS; that is just saying you are better than others at threshold braking. If you are good enough to correctly threshold brake at every corner, then the ABS should never come into play, and you’d put down the exact same lap time with or without ABS installed. ABS should only be activating if a driver oversteps the limits of traction and locks a wheel.

"Flavien Vidal" (flyingfrenchy)
04/12/2017 at 11:15, STARS: 0

Not necessarily, lots of abs I got to try would not allow any lock at all and once it starts working, it seems to unsettle the entire braking pattern of the abs itself.... It’s a bit hard to explain with words, but a tiny bit of lock on one wheel without abs to just find that limit is not bad. With abs, it’s very hard once you’ve activated the damn system to get back to sole grip braking... The pedal feels a lot lighter as soon as it activates and finding grip again is almost impossible. This is why it’s ultimately less effective... I have never tried abs on super high end modern cars and I’m sure it’s much better, but from what I’ve seen and tried, it’s just not as effective as good normal braking.

"ateamfan42" (ateamfan42)
04/12/2017 at 11:34, STARS: 0

It’s a bit hard to explain with words, but a tiny bit of lock on one wheel without abs to just find that limit is not bad.

I think the degree of “badness” of many driver’s aids is determined by the threshold at when they start to activate. For example, my last car had a terrific traction control/stability control system that usually allowed a fair bit of “fun” before it started working its magic to keep things under control. Consequently I rarely turned off the system (just autocross and snow donuts). But some cars have such insane traction control that you can’t even approach the limits without the throttle cutting and the brakes activating.

I guess it is hard to say a particular driving aid is universally good or bad; it depends how well the manufacturer implemented and set up the system for that car. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could tune an ABS threshold through the aftermarket the way ECUs get tuned?

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:43, STARS: 0

Great rebuttal. I’ll rethink my entire stance.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:44, STARS: 0

Maybe one of you will actually read what I wrote? Every notification I open, I doubt it more and more.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:46, STARS: 0

Right. It’s fine if you like to drive with your TC and SC off...I do all the time in my M5. I like to have fun. But stop trying to pretend that in street driving, it’s crucial for you to have these systems off or that they somehow impare you. Unless you’re driving a car with first-gen systems from the 90s and somehow are unable to turn them off...you’re insane if you think this.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:49, STARS: 0

The only example of such a ban has been one chapter of BMW CCA. The ban doesn’t even make sense because the systems are fully defeat-able. If you don’t like them, don’t use them. However it is an undeniable fact that for the average clueless driver, they are having a positive impact. If these system were bad, we wouldn’t be seeing decreases in accidents, injuries and deaths.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:50, STARS: 0

So true. Mostly it was cathartic for me, I expect few will ever even see it. Expect to come tell me that I’m wrong.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:51, STARS: 0

Lol. I used to DD my e28 and was plenty good at that. And then I realized I was sick of driving around in a car from the Cretaceous period.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:54, STARS: 1

You’ll see even in the replies here that many are under the delusion they’re better than the ABS in a modern car. Better than a Chevy in 1981? Sure. Better than anything made in the last 10-15 years? Absolutely not.

The BMW CCA rule was allegedly due to the fact that if you turn the car off and then back on, the aids come back on...but that still seems rather silly. Remember, this was only one chapter of the organization that did this. And I didn’t even see that they were actually able to point to a single example of this causing an incident.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:55, STARS: 1

Right. It’s gotten much worse, I think, in recent years. I’ve been around here since the beginning and we’ve lost many high quality commenters over the years to this new wave of “my truth” and “I know in my heart” imbeciles. Very sad. At least Oppo is semi sane.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 12:57, STARS: 0

Modern driver aids really are designed to help you go faster - especially in cars that don’t have a chassis necessarily designed to optimize track speed. They cover up the bad parts so you don’t have to worry about them.

"Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap" (ddadragon)
04/13/2017 at 13:00, STARS: 1

For the record I think you’re completely right.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 13:02, STARS: 0

I consider myself a good driver (and my record speaks for itself I think) - but there are certainly times on long drivers where I wish I had some of that stuff. My car doesn’t have much in the way of active driver safety aids, although I almost bought something that did, and I do wish I had them once in a while. I’m in the same boat...we are a very small group here. We are far more tuned in to driving than the average person. And we’re maybe a half of a tenth of a percent of drivers in the US. I’ve seen how other people drive. I don’t want them anywhere near my car without assistance.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 13:04, STARS: 0

Good pedantic call-outs. I thought about this after I weote it, but I figured someone would point it out. For 97% of the people out there, ABS is a necessary feature. I know it’s sure saved my ass a couple times. Even my old ass E28 ABS saved me once, although it wasn’t great I will say that.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/13/2017 at 13:06, STARS: 0

This is true. But it’s true regardless of driver aids or not. People have been driving like shit and not really paying too much attention since the Model T. And it shows. People in general are shit at driving. That won’t change, so I’m 100% on board with automakers at least keeping them from fucking up my car if they ever find themselves near me. The rest of us can just turn it off if we don’t want to use it.

"TheD0k_2many toys 2little time" (thed0ck)
04/13/2017 at 13:10, STARS: 0

im being more sarcastic than anything. I dont like aids so therefore i dont buy cars with them. Just how i roll. Whatever other people do is up to them

"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
04/13/2017 at 13:51, STARS: 0

I’ve only been around here for 2 years or so, and I’ve noticed a decline in Jalopnik commentary. I can only imagine the drop if you’ve been here a lot longer.

That said, I do read the FP, but only venture into the comments for NPOCP or when I want to laugh and roll my eyes.

Oppo is much better — but it’s really sad when quality commenters drop out because of the garbage.  The signal to noise ratio on the FP is pretty low, especially on any topic that’s even remotely controversial. That’s what is frustrating.

"Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment" (evanmcm)
04/14/2017 at 11:48, STARS: 1

Right. It’s all pretty heavily biased in one direction, and none of these people know even remotely what they’re talking about. It used to be a place where you could get away from the bullshit...now it’s one of the largest sources of it.