Pedestrian safety is out of control

by "Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
Published 03/28/2017 at 12:38

Tags: 208 GTI ; PAJERO
STARS: 5

Damn, the GTI’s hood is almost as high as the Pajero’s!

Replies (35)

"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
03/28/2017 at 12:43, STARS: 1

You know what’s safer for pedestrians than taller hoods? NOT HITTING THEM!

Sorry, government safety regulations that assume the “accident” start too late in the process for my reasoning.

"Stapleface" (patrickgruden)
03/28/2017 at 12:44, STARS: 0

Genuinely curious. How does a high hood=pedestrian safety? I would assume it would just make the target larger. An old car will just bust some kneecaps. What’s the new one do? Punt their torso?

"BvdV - The Dutch Engineer" (dutchengineer)
03/28/2017 at 12:53, STARS: 1

The Pajero looks shocked about it as well!

"wafflesnfalafel" (wafflesnfalafel1)
03/28/2017 at 12:53, STARS: 0

crush space between the hood and any hard point below so when a pedestrian’s head hits the hood the deceleration Gs are reduced.

"Klaus Schmoll" (klausschmoll)
03/28/2017 at 12:55, STARS: 0

Well, you also wrapped the lower body parts black, so....... 2008 GTI?

"TheTurbochargedSquirrel" (thatsquirrel)
03/28/2017 at 12:55, STARS: 0

It works to push the pedestrian forward instead of just flipping them head first into the windshield.

"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
03/28/2017 at 12:58, STARS: 0

I suggest claymores lining the roads outside of crosswalks and physical crosswalk barriers.

Or, pedestrian bridges/tunnels and actually ENFORCE jaywalking laws?

"TheTurbochargedSquirrel" (thatsquirrel)
03/28/2017 at 12:59, STARS: 0

How do they compare in the other dimensions? Aren’t Pajeros kinda small by modern standards anyway?

"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
03/28/2017 at 13:03, STARS: 5

The recent study of pedestrian safety in NYC had 2/3 of pedestrian-vehicle crashes occurring when the pedestrian was in a crosswalk with the right of way.

One theory was that the data misses jaywalkers because people don’t get hit that often from jaywalking in cities as they are paying attention to traffic. In the crosswalk, when they get the RoW, pedestrians don’t always look for the car/truck/bus that is going to hit them.

The biggest issue the study found was distracted and inattentive driving, not improper walking.

"Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever" (rustanddust)
03/28/2017 at 13:14, STARS: 0

A lot of it is in fender mounting more than the hood. Most newer cars have the fenders stepped up off of the apron/inner structure on small tabs that allow the fender to “float” or move independent from the inner structure, so when you get run down in a crosswalk and your body flops on the front end, there’s a bit of give.

Elevated front sheetmetal (fender on tabs, 2" above structure):

Traditional (old) front sheetmetal (fender bolts directly to structure):

PS: I hate the new design, lets lazy body repair technicians align exterior sheet metal on a misaligned inner structure (just bend the tabs to get the fenders to fit the hood).

"Stapleface" (patrickgruden)
03/28/2017 at 13:16, STARS: 0

I’ve never noticed the new way. I get it, but I really don’t like it. As you said, it just proliferates shoddy work. Anyone can bend a damn tab without fixing squat.

"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
03/28/2017 at 13:24, STARS: 1

Was about to say, I’m in favor of pedestrian safety on cars because drivers can’t put down a phone for 3 goddam seconds in a city center! So many people blow stop signs, yield signs, crosswalks, and more - usually coming quite close to running over someone - that I’m amazed the fatality rate downtown isn’t higher.

I still believe if you get caught distracted driving (particularly in bad weather or downtown areas) your car should get slapped with brightly colored stickers that warn everyone nearby that you’re an awful driver. See, if you just sentence them to a 100$ fine? Only really stops people who scrape by. Slightly better off dingbats? To them, it’s just....Meh. BUT! Plaster their new acura or 3-series in firetruck red and emergency yellow stickers that say “WARNING: I AM AN IDIOT!”? They will think twice.

"4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30" (4muddyfeet)
03/28/2017 at 13:26, STARS: 1

I didn’t tell you while we were out there, but those O.Zs look great on the car by the way.

"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
03/28/2017 at 13:27, STARS: 1

A big gumball light on the top that turns on whenever the car does.

I think it’s a good idea.

"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
03/28/2017 at 13:33, STARS: 1

Only if there’s also a loudspeaker that constantly is telling people to look out because you can’t drive. “HEY EVERYBODY! Just letting you know I’m here.......cause I kidna suck at this. BUT ITS OKAY, IM TRYING! But don’t mind me OHMYGODLOOKOUT oh wait.....wait, we’re fine”

"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
03/28/2017 at 13:40, STARS: 0

Still... removing that 1/3 isn’t a bad thing.

Also, RoW=/=Safe to cross. So many people seem to think “crosswalk, everybody’s gonna stop” and just march out without looking.

I see 4 types of vehicle-pedestrian crashes:

1- Jaywalker. On them.

2- Crossing at a crosswalk but not looking for traffic. On them. I don’t care if you have RoW, you don’t just step in front of traffic.

3- Crossing at a crosswalk, looking for traffic, going because it’s clear only to be hit because you are in a blind spot. Imma come back to this one.

4- Crossing legally, driver not paying attention. On the driver. Fine/arrest his ass off.

#3 can go both ways. It’s going to be a smaller set anyway since it’s pretty much restricted to left-turning traffic, but here goes anyway. Depending on the intersection, it can be quite easy to get someone in you’re A-pillar. you can’t see them until you turn. Now: If there’s no traffic, you have to stop. There’s no choice. If you don’t that one’s on you. If there is traffic, what do you do? You can get t-boned or hit the pedestrian (assuming you can’t get around). We could argue all day about what’s ethical, but realistically it doesn’t matter anyway—if you’ve got cross traffic you’re going to hit the walker. In this case, the pedestrian needs to give way and run. Being in the blind spot is a chance encounter I couldn’t pin to either party. Not taking actions that you can easily take is controllable and if you don’t do it, it’s on you.

But like I said #3 is small and doesn’t matter as a %. But look at the remaining categories. 2/3 are legal crossers. Same as your source. But 2/3 of them, I see to be the fault of the pedestrian, at least when dividing into hard categories.

Basically stats can be twisted into whatever shape you want. My own opinion is the real numbers are 50/50. And while I agree with you that assuming the accident doesn’t seem like a good place to start, it is a reality. People do stupid shit (whether on tires or in shoes) people get hurt.

In the end no matter what the actual cause is, if you could eliminate pedestrians from the roads you’d have no more fender&flesh accidents. That’s a fact. Unfortunately it’s an idealistic fact, you’re never going to get 100% success with any method.

But consider this. Using your numbers that 2/3 are legal crossers and assuming 2/3 are entirely the fault of the drivers, say that at every crossing we tear up the crosswalk markings and build pedestrian bridges or tunnels. That takes the legal crossers out of reach of all but the most insanely distracted drivers/freak accidents. With one stroke then, you have eliminated 2/3 of pedestrian casualties. And the 1/3 that remain, the jaywalkers... well frankly I don’t give a shit what happens to them.

TL;DR stats are misleading obious answer is obvious not wait it isn’t things are expensive but you can’t weigh it against human life fuck jaywalkers and distracted drivers OH SHIT WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/28/2017 at 13:47, STARS: 0

At first I was very confused when you said GTI because this doesn’t look like any Golf I’ve seen. Then I realized it’s a Peugeot.

"As Du Volant" (skuhnphoto)
03/28/2017 at 13:56, STARS: 0

I certainly hope NYC is better about this, but a major problem we have in Pittsburgh is that the pedestrian “walk” light switches on at the same time as the right turn arrow. Drivers pull up to the light, see the green arrow and gun it, and drive straight into the path of pedestrians attempting to cross when they think they’ve been given right of way. It’s dangerous as hell. People get hit here pretty often because they cross WITH the “walk” light and get mowed down by a driver turning right.

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 13:58, STARS: 0

Pajero: 400x168x184cm

208: 396x174x146cm

So the pug is wider, and the Pajero is “only” 38cm higher all in all

"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
03/28/2017 at 13:59, STARS: 0

Offhand, I don’t know many intersections with a right-turn arrow, but I don’t venture much from my neighborhood. Most I see is simply a green light.

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 13:59, STARS: 0

But I had to update my Facebook!

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 14:01, STARS: 0

This. Absolutely. Themanwithsauce 2020!

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 14:05, STARS: 0

Kind of looks like a body kit on a universal frame

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 14:06, STARS: 0

Nope, 208 GTI, I have been dissapointed by VAG

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 14:08, STARS: 1

Thanks! I loved them on the 206 WRC, and it fits the retro vibe I wanted, 205 color scheme and 206 wheels

"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
03/28/2017 at 14:09, STARS: 2

We’ve had protracted discussions in the past about pedestrians, cycling, and car traffic. I will continue to disagree with your stances that make the roads only there for cars. My ultimate belief is one that the roads were in place for foot traffic, horses and bicycles before the car and a shared roadway is a shared roadway, all operators should be grateful to use it and in being grateful be mindful of other users. Putting the blame inordinately on the group who come away with the worst of it in a collision is not justice. We need to respect the inertia each mode brings to the multi-use intersections and care should be commensurate of the damage one can cause to others. Walkers should be the foremost protected where they are allowed to be, runners should respect walkers, but be respected by those larger, faster heavier, etc. and so on and so forth.

The idea that cars should not be blamed because a person with the right of way was looking at their phone while walking is insane, frankly. If they can walk and not run into other walkers while on their phone, they’ll miss the joy of the outdoors, but they’re not a danger to anyone. A vehicle (including bikes) is a weapon when not properly controlled, a pedestrian is not. It’s that simple.

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 14:11, STARS: 0

It actually kind of looks like the urban SUVs you can see everywere

"Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction" (rustholes-are-weight-reduction)
03/28/2017 at 14:12, STARS: 1

My, how tall you’ve become!

"Klaus Schmoll" (klausschmoll)
03/28/2017 at 14:23, STARS: 0

Yep, you added a zero to your 208.

"Scott" (merl3noir)
03/28/2017 at 14:52, STARS: 1

this is anecdotal, but a friend of mine that pretty much walks everywhere had a comment on this. He said the most common close call he has is drivers turning right. Most drivers are looking left for traffic and don’t always expect a pedestrian to be in the cross walk when they start to turn right. I’ve noticed this as well, both as a driver and pedestrian. .

So along what you are saying, someone jay walking in the middle of the block would give drivers turning right time to spot them after making the turn.

Purely as a driver though, the times I have had the closest incidents, people walking in the road, at night, where it is not lit, wearing dark cloths. It always amazes me that people that are in a situation where they are for all intense and purpose invisible, would not make extra effort to at least watch out for traffic for their own safety.

"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
03/28/2017 at 15:01, STARS: 0

The idea that cars should not be blamed because a person with the right of way was looking at their phone while walking is insane, frankly.

So. Pedestrian walks across the road on a designated crossing without looking, directly into the path of a vehicle that is far too close to stop, and that’s the fault of the driver? That, to me, is insanity. It’s up to everyone to make sure they’re safe, and frankly if you can’t do that you haven’t done your due diligence. Careless driver, careless walker. Don’t care which it is. They’re to blame.

a shared roadway is a shared roadway, all operators should be grateful to use it and in being grateful be mindful of other users.

Correct and correct. Can’t get that through your head? Get off the road. I don’t care if your motion is coming through driveshafts, chains or legs--get off.

the roads were in place for foot traffic, horses and bicycles before the car

True. Though it was hardly a good system even at the time, but tolerable because speed differentials were low (and because horses and carts/riders had a second set of eyes and a drivetrain capable of conscious though). I would also point out that even then the pedestrians were in many places separated from the bulk of the road traffic. But the fact of the matter is that that’s totally irrelevant now.The roads are now designed primarily for car traffic and pedestrian traffic is no longer permitted to travel on them except in residential areas where there are no sidewalks. This was not done out of spite, it was done FOR THE SAFETY OF ALL PARTIES, and PRIMARILY for the SAFETY of the PEDESTRIAN. Also in this vein is my view that where possible pedestrians should be using tunnels or bridges. It’s NOT out of spite, it’s NOT out of desire to have sole control of the roads, it’s a safety feature. Ideally we’de keep all different types of traffic separate, unfortunately that isn’t practical. The fact of the matter is that a car is heavier than you, cannot stop as quickly or change direction as fast should you make an unexpected move. So in my view saying that pedestrians should be allowed to cross the road whenever and however they want because the roads used to be used by them is like saying that farmers should be able to turn their livestock loose in airports because the earliest airstrips were fields. It’s something that was changed/regulated because the system had problems.

But eventually the sidewalk and the road must meet. And there, both parties must pay attention. Someone gets hurt because someone wasn’t paying attention? Don’t automatically blame anyone just because they’re in Nike’s or in Pirelli’s, blame the party who was distracted.

Putting the blame inordinately on the group who come away with the worst of it in a collision is not justice.

Damn right. But allow me to repeat myself...

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Or, more accurately in the context of this sentence, blame the party at fault. Simple, isn’t it? If it’s the car, it’s the car. But if it’s the pedestrian... don’t blame the car. So simple, yet seemingly totally beyond comprehension. In other words, you are correct in not blaming the victim... but who was the victim? Automatically blaming the pedestrian is not justice, no. But neither is automatically blaming the car.

I will continue to disagree with your stances that make the roads only there for cars.

And I in return will continue to state that the roads, as they now stand, ARE there for cars. And bikes, for the same reasons (higher speed vehicles/pedestrians don’t mix), though ATTN CYCLISTS THE STOP SIGNS APPLY TO YOU TOO. The roads are, emphatically, NOT there for pedestrian traffic except for small streets with no sidewalks. The sidewalks are for pedestrians (they even have “walk” in the name! Lookitthat) and they should remain there until they come to a crossing. At the crossing, as I’ve said before... it’s anyone’s game. They have right of way IF: a) they are traveling in the direction of traffic and the only vehicles crossing their path are turning, and b) they are at a separate crosswalk and have pushed the button to turn the lights on. And even still they need to look around, it’s just common sense. I’m not going to make the claim that they are at fault if a distracted driver runs them down just because they didn’t look, but neither am I going to excuse them—it would just happen there were two idiots instead of one.

I’ll close with this:

One theory was that the data misses jaywalkers because people don’t get hit that often from jaywalking in cities as they are paying attention to traffic. In the crosswalk, when they get the RoW, pedestrians don’t always look for the car/truck/bus that is going to hit them.

After all that I reread your original reply to me, and though we have totally different views on what and how, this is essentially the same point as I was making in my last reply, but fleshed out with my experience/observations as a driver, passenger, rider and pedestrian. Doh

"As Du Volant" (skuhnphoto)
03/28/2017 at 15:22, STARS: 0

I wasn’t picturing the whole thing when I wrote that- they actually would have either the arrow or the green light. Basically when the walk light comes on the green light for the road running parallel with it also comes on, and you have cars with the green light making turns and barreling through pedestrians in the crosswalk. It’s asinine.

"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
03/28/2017 at 15:40, STARS: 1

It’s all good. And we can agree to disagree on things. We agree on a ton, which is awesome. I agree that stepping out on a moving car too close to stop is stupid. I see too often that drivers are wont to speed on main streets and not aware of crosswalks meaning when someone does step out on one, the driver either misreads it as jaywalking and for some reason feels justified in “giving them a scare” or worse is clueless to the law of stopping for pedestrians. That was the majority of the pedestrian crashes in my little town last year, people crossing and drivers not being aware they had to stop, sometimes it was the car behind the car stopping that goes around the first car because they think they are stopping to pull into a parking lot, or parallel parking on the street. It really is amazing the impatience of many people on the road (in all forms) and in life in general.

I think 40% of crashes happen because the people involved were rushing themselves, or impatient with the other road operators and make a bad decision. Totally unfounded apart from observation, but 5-10 seconds lost is better than the crash is for your day in general and I often see people behaving badly seemingly in a rush, but only pulling into Dunkin Donuts, or Starbucks. I mean really, where’s the fire?

Anyways. Enjoy your day. I can get along with most here because they are attentive drivers, they do care about the roads, etc. You’re included. Thanks for keeping your eyes peeled for the little guys.

I’m currently playing games in the car with my boys when we drive places where we count cyclists and motorcycle riders. It will teach them to look out for them when they start driving.

"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
03/28/2017 at 15:58, STARS: 0

Yup.

Absolutely. A note here though. If you’re stopping without signals, I’m more likely to take a chance to get back in flowing traffic, regardless of where I’m turning. If you’re signalling, I’ll probably wait. If you’ve got your hazards on, I’ve probably already noticed you and moved over. Use your signals people, it gives everyone a chance to make correct decisions.

You too.

Interesting idea! Probably will work, too--you can’t help but notice things you were trained to as a kid. Sometimes you wish you could but you can’t help yourself :)

"Out, but with a W - has found the answer" (belg)
03/29/2017 at 01:28, STARS: 0

If I may, I’d like to describe the European (well, Belgian) system, as it provides an interesting counterpoint to the US system (which, as far as I’ve understood, is aimed massively in favour of car traffic):

All pedestrian crossings are clearly marked and give RoW to any pedestrian at any time. This means drivers are required to pay attention and be prepared to hit the brakes every time they near one, which is also taught in driver’s ed.

More importantly though, in 30 kph zones, pedestrians have RoW at any time and place. When these zones are executed as a shared space, with barely any difference between sidewalk and roadway, it has been shown that accident rates fall greatly.

Finally, jaywalking is a concept that doesn’t exist over here: as long as there’s no sidewalk within 50 m, you just cross the road (attentively!).