by "WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
Published 03/09/2017 at 14:38
by "WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
Published 03/09/2017 at 14:38
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STARS: 0
I have never had much respect for the manual shifting automatics, as all of the ones I’ve driven were shit. The Porsche Tiptronic, Audi Tiptronic (both ZF units), and whatever Land Rover called theirs. The shifters only ever gave the semblance of control, but were quick to dive back in to control up or down shifts. Not to mention the lag was so bad, it wasn’t worth.
This changed when I test drove a 2017 Chevy SS last weekend. While I was hoping to drive a manual, the dealer only had an automatic. To my surprise, the manual shift was actually pretty nice. Up and downshifts were done quickly, with a nice little rev match on the down shifts, you could bog the engine by being in too high of a gear, and you could also take it to redline. Since this is an actual GM transmission that’s been in use since 2005, I was very impressed. Not that it changed my desire for a manual, but it certainly made me more open to the idea
Which leads me to the question at hand. What other auto-only performance vehicles that I’ve dismissed should be reconsidered? I have to imagine GM isn’t the only one to have made a truly nice manual shifting automatic.
So what else is good? Lexus GS/IF/RC, AMG, Jaguar?
Note: I realize a DCT will shift very fast compared to a torque converter auto, but you just don’t see them much outside of ultra expensive vehicles.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
03/09/2017 at 14:41, STARS: 0
I think what you’re describing has more to do with the software and how it’s programmed than the actual transmission, though the blip and rev matching has more to do with electronic throttles than the transmission, which may not have been around in 2005. IIRC, Tiptronics are really CVTs, so they don’t count.
"whoarder is tellurium" (whoarder)
03/09/2017 at 14:46, STARS: 0
If it doesn’t rev match on downshift AND the direction of the upshift/downshift on the shifter is “wrong”, then I generally hate the setup. I would also prefer the car to not automatically upshift if I hit redline in manual mode.
Few cars get this right it seems.
"AkursedX" (akursedx)
03/09/2017 at 14:47, STARS: 0
I’ve always enjoyed VW’s DSG gearbox (except when mated to a TDI). My MKV GTI was the most fun automatic I have owned.
"My X-type is too a real Jaguar" (TomSlick)
03/09/2017 at 14:50, STARS: 0
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 14:51, STARS: 0
Absolutely, the transmission (GM 6L80/90) was used in everything from the H2 to the CTS-V. Many of the applications aren’t performance based at all. The tiptronics (ZF 5/6Hp) aren’t CVT though, they actually have gears. Well, at least in the versions I drove.
I’m just interested in knowing which vehicles have good shifting autos, whether its in sport or track mode, or just normally.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 14:56, STARS: 0
The paddles were correct (left downshift, right upshift), but I can’t tell you if it would let you bounce it off the rev limiter. I got up to red line, but didn’t exceed it.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/09/2017 at 15:00, STARS: 0
I had a BMW 135is DCT. It was quick shifting but occasionally slightly uncivilized. The ZF 8-speed in other BMWs when attached to the same motor is basically just as quick shifting (maybe slightly less) but much more refined. Anything with the ZF 8-speed is worth a try.
The ZF 9-speed on the other hand is kinda terrible.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 15:02, STARS: 1
AMGs are definitely known for crisp shifts and newer regular Merc’s actually have some good paddle shifters, even the 2016 C300 I drove down and upshifted much more quickly than my 2014 C300. My C300 would ALWAYS allow me to bounce of the limiter without complaint or intervention.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 15:03, STARS: 1
Also wait until you try a PDK, you’ll be completely spoiled. 911 Turbo S I drove had INSTANT shifts.
"phenotyp" (phenotyp)
03/09/2017 at 15:04, STARS: 0
Although it’s still a slushbox and not a DSG, the manual option on my 535, in sport mode, is really pretty hard to fault. Holds revs, redlines, and shifts super quickly. I’ve driven manual E60s, and they’re just nowhere close to as good, much as it may pain me to say.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:05, STARS: 1
To me thats just as important as crisp upshifts. If it interjects and shifts when I don’t want it to, then I don’t actually have control, and might as well leave it in manual mode. Incidentally, I think a C63 Amg would be amazing.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:07, STARS: 0
I think a lot of people are starting to realize you can have too many gears. I still think 6 is about perfect.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
03/09/2017 at 15:08, STARS: 0
erm, audis/VW DSGs are in almost everything...as is the porsche PDK (note these arent the tiptronics, these are the Dual-clutches.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:09, STARS: 0
Those are the two requirements for a good shifting auto: 1. does it shift fast, and 2. does it allow me to abuse it.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:09, STARS: 0
I do not doubt that, but it will be a while (if ever) before they’re in my price bracket.
"Cé hé sin" (michael-m-mouse)
03/09/2017 at 15:13, STARS: 0
The ZF 9-speed on the other hand is kinda terrible.
You see people saying that but all the recent reports I’ve seen of various LR and Jeep vehicles with the 9 speed don’t have anything bad to say of it bar an occasional uncertainty when moving off.
"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
03/09/2017 at 15:14, STARS: 1
Both bear the same resemblance to the real thing.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/09/2017 at 15:14, STARS: 0
My 135is was 7 speeds. My current stick shift 335xi is 6 speeds and overall the gears are taller and more widely spaced. I liked the DCT gearing better.
Also there’s a 10-speed developed by Ford and GM that’s going in the Camaro ZL1 and others, it’s supposed to be good. I’m not sure what exactly about the ZF 9-speed makes it a dud but it’s generally not popular. I’ve driven an Acura TLX with it and it wasn’t terrible but there were some annoyances.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:14, STARS: 0
Well, they’re in most VW products. I would love to play with a PDK, but that’s outside my price range for the foreseeable future. I was wondering more about the Japanese sports sedans or Jaguar, since they typically don’t like manuals.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
03/09/2017 at 15:18, STARS: 0
weird thing I’ve noticed...
in our A3 w/ DSG, it will let you pick any gear, but will upshift at redline for you. but you can lug it around in 6th all day (with in reason...its not letting you get to 6th if you are doing 10mph.
on our Lexus Is250, its the other way. it act more like a gear limiter. you can bounce it off the redline in 4th all day, but if you are just cruising in 6th and floor it, it will automaticly drop a few gears and get you moving.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:18, STARS: 0
Its probably the application. Maybe its just better suited for a 4wd application, rather than sport?
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:21, STARS: 0
That’s always been my opinion too, but I was actually impressed by the auto in the SS, hence the post. The rev match on downshifts was nice, and they clicked off as fast as the upshifts did.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:24, STARS: 0
Its funny you mention that, I was looking to see what people thought of the IS autos, and that was the first thing that came up. If I’m in “manual” mode, I don’t want ANY interference.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 15:25, STARS: 1
The way MB’s work is, you can intervene with the paddles in every mode - Comfort-Sport-Sport+. Then there is a full on Manual mode that will only intervene if it thinks there is a risk of damage and you need to go through the gears to get moving.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 15:27, STARS: 0
If you are hooning you are likely to stay between 2nd-5th the upper gears 6-7-8-9 etc are for cruising along at 75 MPH at like 900 RPM for max fuel savings.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
03/09/2017 at 15:28, STARS: 0
no auto will give you ‘true’ control from factory that I know of(VWs will after a tune from APR from what I hear). at the very least it will downshift if you drop the speeds too low.
its a longevity measure. they have to offer warranties on these things. dont really want to warranty a car that a total yobo drove right?
"Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street." (demon-xanth)
03/09/2017 at 15:29, STARS: 0
They do make a lot of sense in full size trucks since the gear positions needed for an 8+ speed trans to go into first would put the level into instant nutshot. You don’t need to shift fast nor frequently, but you want the right gear and you want it to stay there for the length of the grade.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:29, STARS: 1
So basically a 5 speed with 4 overdrives?
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:30, STARS: 0
That’s not bad. Does it have rev matching for downshifts?
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:31, STARS: 0
Yeah, I know. I just want the bare minimum interference. Also rev matching for down shifts, that was fun
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 15:38, STARS: 1
Eh that’s oversimplifying it but in a way.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 15:43, STARS: 0
The AMGs do, and there are tunes that make it even more accurate. The normal Benz’s don’t do it automatically to my knowledge.
"WiscoProud" (wiscoproud)
03/09/2017 at 15:48, STARS: 0
Nice. Now I just need to find one to test drive
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/09/2017 at 15:51, STARS: 0
My experience with it is in the Acura TLX SH-AWD. In automatic mode it had weird hesitations at various times especially when starting and stopping. In manual mode its shifts weren’t very responsive, especially downshifts where other cars including those with the ZF 8-speed are much more eager to rev-match.
"Cé hé sin" (michael-m-mouse)
03/09/2017 at 15:58, STARS: 0
There’ve been quite a number of those over the years. Makers occasionally get the idea they might be a good idea and then think better of it.
The most recent batch:
Mercedes ACS
Saab Sensonic
Renault something or other
Fiat Citymatic
The previous time:
Saxomat
Easydrive
Merc Hydrak
and no doubt many more
"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich)
03/09/2017 at 15:59, STARS: 0
There is one benefit to having a manually shifted automatic... with the new automatics with 6+ gears, you can force it to hold ONE gear so the bloody thing isn’t upshifting or downshifting a gear or two just because you moved your right foot a little while cruising on the highway.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
03/09/2017 at 17:08, STARS: 0
Do it. Particularly an AMG with a wet clutch instead of torque converter (it well have race start if this is the case).
PDK is excellent too, btw.