by "Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
Published 03/06/2017 at 16:56
by "Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
Published 03/06/2017 at 16:56
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STARS: 6
When I started getting into fitness, it was because I was fat and sick of it. As I made progress, I didn’t want to mess with supplements, like I had this sense that they were sorta kinda cheating. But then one day I randomly saw C4 Preworkout at Costco, and gradually became a supplement bro. Here’s what I’ve learned.
I’ll try to break down what all this stuff does, without going full-on encyclopedia. But before we do that:
Supplements won’t help you if you eat like crap!
They’re not a substitute for proper eating, which is the key to being healthy. Supplements are little helpers that can give you a boost in certain areas, IF you’re eating right, and doing the sort of workout that they help with.
Now that that’s out of the way...
Protein
Your body needs protein to build muscle. You won’t build muscle from eating protein by itself, but eating protein along with strength training gives you the building blocks you need. Obviously, you can get protein from food! But if you’re trying to build muscle, protein supplements are an easy way to make sure you have enough without getting a bunch of extra unwanted calories. But be careful, because a lot of protein powders can have mass quantities of fat and cholesterol in them. Some folks say this is no big deal but it can throw off your balance of protein/fat/carbs if you’re not mindful of what’s in your particular supplement.
Strength Helpers
Creatine helps your muscles more effectively burn energy, and also fluffs them up by holding on to extra water. By itself this also doesn’t build muscle, but in response to strength training, it can help you build muscle tissue more quickly. It also can help you get a couple extra reps or more weight when lifting. Creatine has to be bonded to another substance. Its most common form is creatine monohydrate, followed by creatine hydrochloride, and creatine nitrate. It has the same basic effect in all forms but the bonding agent affects how much and when you should take it. Some folks tend to retain more water from one form or another. Personally I find creatine hydrochloride works best for me.
Beta alanine helps with endurance. When you take beta alanine, it ends up converted into a compound in your body called carnosine, which is an acid inhibitor. Normally in response to hard work, your muscle cells build up lactic acid which causes fatigue and cramps. By having extra carnosine stored up through supplementing beta alanine, it counteracts that lactic acid. This helps with heavy lifting, and endurance activities like marathons or distance cycling. When you first take beta alanine, you get an all-over tingling sensation called paresthesia. It may feel weird, but it’s fine. Most folks develop a tolerance to this over time and stop getting the tingles.
Stimulants
Caffeine in all its glorious and lovely forms.
Recovery Aids
Glutamine is the most common amino acid in our bodies. Normally you can make plenty of what you need, but the stress hormone cortisol eats up your stored glutamine. Your body releases cortisol if you work out really hard so supplementing with glutamine can keep your level where it should be. But if you’re not killing it at the gym you’re probably not making enough cortisol for this to be necessary.
Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA) - These are some of the main building blocks of muscle tissue. Another over-simplification, but basically in response to strength training, having these around helps your muscle tissue rebuild itself.
Vitamins
I’m not going to detail all the different vitamins out there, because there are just too many. A basic multivitamin is nutritionally a good idea.
Vasodilators
These are getting into weirdness. You’ll see supplements talking about GET MASSIVE VASCULARITY!!! and BOOST YOUR NITRIC OXIDE!!! and other nonsense. What these do is encourage your blood vessels to expand. Some folks think this helps with endurance but it’s questionable. If you’re healthy and in good shape your blood vessels will naturally do this in response to exercise. Some people like these because they like looking all veiny. The most common ingredients are arginine and citrulline. Fun fact: these ingredients are also often found in over-the-counter boner pills.
Testosterone Boosters
There are assorted herbal thingies that supposedly increase the testosterone in your blood but honestly most of this is bullshit. The only things that will really boost testosterone are human growth hormone and anabolic steroids. And if you’re considering these....well, maybe you’re taking things a bit too far.
Random Crap That Does Nothing - we’ll talk more about this later.
When I first got into supplements, without knowing any better, I took that
C4 Pre-workout
. It has creatine, beta alanine, stimulants, and vasodilators. I got that crazy beta alanine tingle, and I got
AMPED TO LIFT WEIGHTS BRO
,
I started building some more muscle and my veins started popping out of my arms.
I thought this was pretty cool.
Then I said, “well if a pre-workout is doing all this cool stuff, what about a post workout? ” I went through a few of those, eventually settling on Muscletech Myobuild BCAA and glutamine.
But then I started going crazy from all the caffeine in the C4, because I work out at night. It was driving me nuts. I switched to
GAT Jetfuse
at the recommendation of a coworker because it had creatine, beta alanine, and vasodilators and whatnot, but no caffeine.
Eventually though, I ditched all this crap. Because you’re paying more money for fancy names, chromed out packaging, extra “proprietary” ingredients that are supposed to do something magical but don’t really do anything, and a bunch of vitamins that are redundant if you take a multivitamin. I also decided I didn’t need any vasodilators because really, who cares how many veins pop out of your arms?
In the case of GAT Jetfuse, at the time it didn’t even have quantities of the main things like creatine or beta alanine on the label, but since then they have started publishing that information. But seriously, look at the labels!
C4 Pre-workout
GAT Jetfuse
MuscleTech Myobuild
There’s all kinds of crap in there that does nothing.
N-Acetyl-L Tyrosine? Velvet bean ( Mucuna pruriens ) seed extract (standardized for L-Dopa)? TeaCor Tetramethyluric acid? Glucuronolactone? BioPerine black pepper fruit extract? Cinnamon bark powder? Tart cherry concentrate?
All of these are basically, “look at this stuff that’s only in our fancy pre-mixed supplement, you can’t switch if you don’t want to lose these awesome things that you don’t know what they do!”
The fact is, most of the supplements you actually can get some benefit from are available on their own, in bulk, and for cheap. If you pick and choose which of the ones that will actually help you, you can save a bunch of money and get just as much of the effects you want.
My current supplements are as follows:
Pre-workout
2.25g
creatine HCl
5g
beta alanine
1 banana & 1 Premier Protein bar (30g protein)
Post-workout
5g
glutamine
1g BCAA 2:1:1 (2
Optimum BCAA 1000
caps)
1
Walmart knockoff One-A-Day Men’s multivitamin
I eat my dinner after my workout.
This is a lot less stuff than those crazy ingredient lists I showed you earlier. But still, it’s a bunch of stuff. Do you need to take all this? Not really!
Many of the things I ended up with after dialing back from the wacky stuff are also available through foods. You can tailor your diet to give you these things.
Really, I look at the supplements I take more as ensuring that I have a consistent supply of these things regardless of changes in diet.
If you’re just doing cardio and/or light weights, none of this is going to help you.
If you’re getting into lifting, a little bit of creatine could be a nice boost.
If you’re lifting enough to really make yourself feel dead afterwards, or doing endurance work, maybe look at beta alanine, glutamine & BCAAs.
Some folks like a stimulant before they work out but I find it doesn’t really help me work harder and I just go crazy from having it at night.
If you want to have crazy veins you can look at vasodilators, I guess.
Anyway, this is a long-ass explanation, but hopefully someone gets something useful out of it. I’m not an expert, so if you disagree, feel free to chime in, and if if you have questions, I can at least give an opinion based on stuff I’ve learned over time.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
03/06/2017 at 17:03, STARS: 0
I’ve used a lot of that stuff over the years, namely creatine to initially get my strength base up when I was a skinny teenager. The stuff works, especially when used properly. These days I’m poorer, so I stick to whey protein during the day, occasionally casein at night (I consider both of these “foods” and not “supplements” in the traditional sense). Other than that, a multivitamin in the morning and I just started taking ZMA at night, which is just vitamins and minerals in a specific ratio to aid sleep and recovery. 31 days until my next Spartan race...my goal: top 10% of finishers, both overall (not too hard) and in my age/gender group (tougher).
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 17:07, STARS: 0
Yeah protein is kind of a food, but I’m lumping it in here since it’s marketed/packaged like a supplement.
I’m mildly lactose intolerant so I have to stick with whey isolate, regular whey and casein are no dice for me. I also prefer to avoid the extra fat/cholesterol.
I have a Pure Protein 20g bar and a piece of fruit for breakfast, a Premier Protein 30g bar before workouts, eat a bunch of protein foods in my diet, and occasionally steal some of my wife’s Biochem whey isolate.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
03/06/2017 at 17:13, STARS: 0
I need to book mark this article because I’m gonna get serious about dropping some weight and getting lean this spring. I don’t need to build muscle mass but recovery and proper nutrition are going to be key. I mostly stick to simple electrolytes during work out and will do chocolate milk/yogurt/PB&J post work out. I haven’t used any concentrated protein in years. Most of my exercise will be from running/jogging at 1-2 hrs per work out, bicycle riding (1-3 hrs/work out), and some swimming (0-5 minutes of survival swiming between the dock and shore) mixed with chopping wood (splitting mall, 5-6 pieces per load), cutting down trees (6-12" diameter pine and fir) and mowing the lawn (1 acre, with self propeled honda mower).
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 17:17, STARS: 0
The activities you’ve described are maybe borderline for doing some of the stuff that helps with endurance, namely glutamine and beta alanine. But that depends on how intense the running and biking is. If you’re talking low speed steady state then not so much.
"Nick Has an Exocet" (nickallain)
03/06/2017 at 17:24, STARS: 0
You said “building blocks” like a true workout bro.
I shed 40lbs this year by eating right and walking. The only thing close to a supplement that I use is Soylent - because it has what plants crave.
I think as you go down your list, you fall towards “get swole” but away from “get healthy”. There are plenty of swole-ass people who drop dead from one thing or another. Muscles and health are two different things.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
03/06/2017 at 17:27, STARS: 0
If I’m doing a real work out I’m generally near lactic threshold. I monitor with a hart rate monitor so I know where I’m at. My problem is usually going too hard too soon.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 17:30, STARS: 4
Professional biochemist here. I don’t want to offend anyone who uses any of these things. I just have to say that you can spend you money on supplements if you want, but you don’t need any of it except a daily multivitamin. Creatine, protein bars, alanine, you can get whatever you need by eating a can of tuna after your workout (by the way, protein is calories too and just gets converted to carbs by your metabolism if you don’t eat enough).
Definitely stay away from anything that is supposed to jack with your endocrine system. Even if it works, your system doesn’t need the help. It knows what it’s doing.
Do some of these supplements don something? Perhaps, but it’s marginal and not a good value when you consider what they cost. Might as well eat real food and enjoy it. The exception is power bars and such, which are good to keep in your pack if you’re on a long ride or run, just for convenience sake and to not bonk.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 17:36, STARS: 2
I totally agree with you. Yes, there are plenty of people with big muscles who are not necessarily healthy/fit.
I started out similarly—I dropped a bunch of weight from eating healthy and doing cardio. I wasn’t taking a bunch of supplements to do that, aside from multivitamins. If losing weight and general health is your goal then most of this stuff is unnecessary.
What I found was that while I was generally happy with having lost a bunch of weight, I wanted to take the next step of building muscle, while keeping at the cardio and healthy eating, for overall fitness.
I can happily say that at 5'11" and 200 lbs, I have a 45" chest, 33" waist, a resting heart rate of about 55, resting blood pressure around 115/75, and roughly 15% body fat. I can do reps of 275 lbs with squats and 315 lbs of deadlifts, among other things. None of this is super crazy heavy weight but for being a fat slob a few years ago it’s pretty good.
I could drop a few more pounds of fat if I really wanted to lean out but it’s not as big of a priority to me as general wellness.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 17:39, STARS: 0
No offense taken, like I said I’m not an expert.
Totally agree with you that excess protein if you don’t need it is going to be stored as fat.
I suppose I should’ve mentioned that many of the things I ended up with after dialing back from the wacky stuff are also available through foods. I look at it more as ensuring I have a consistent supply of those things regardless of fluctuations in diet. In fact, I’m going to add that to my post.
And yes, I eat a lot of tuna! ;)
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 17:47, STARS: 0
Thanks. I was worried I might come off as preachy or condescending, and I don’t want that at all. You always seem to be someone who is thoughtful and logical.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 17:54, STARS: 1
Yeah no problem. Thanks for saying so.
Also I agree on eating real foods and enjoying them. I’m a big food nerd and genuinely enjoy coming up with tasty stuff that fits in my overall eating plan. Basically the only processed stuff I eat is protein & granola bars.
The main takeaways I want people to get are:
- Avoid messing with the goofy proprietary crap that I did.
- Look at the individual ingredients that might help them, depending on workout.
- Remember that these are just a little something extra and not a substitute for proper nutrition.
(All the pictures of people who’ve messed with too many steroids or other crap are a subtle hint but I’m not sure if that’s going over people’s heads haha.)
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
03/06/2017 at 17:57, STARS: 0
Creatine makes your muscles hold on to extra water. By itself this also doesn’t build muscle, but in response to strength training, it can help you build muscle tissue more quickly. Creatine has to be bonded to another substance. Its most common form is creatine monohydrate, followed by creatine hydrochloride, and creatine nitrate. It has the same basic effect in all forms but the bonding agent affects how much and when you should take it. Some folks tend to retain more water from one form or another. Personally I find creatine hydrochloride works best for me.
Muscle building, sure, but it’s also a big performance booster. The enhanced ATP synthesis will help with fatigue resistance and overall power.
Also, everybody’s needs are different. I’ve used many pre-workouts and found that the stim-based stuff (Assault, Jack3d old and new, Pre Jym, C4, GSPW, etc) give focus and drive but do not deliver on power/fatigue. I respond better to higher doses of Creatine.
And don’t forget a joint supplement. Dump the one-a-days for Opti-men or one of the other broad spectrum multis.
"nermal" (nermal)
03/06/2017 at 17:57, STARS: 1
Counterpoint: You’re better off ditching the supplements entirely and replacing with a loaded up burrito, such as the Homewrecker from Moe’s.
The supplements will get you wired due to the caffeine, B-vitamins, and other stimulants. The burrito will help to not only fill you with ~1k calories of delicious, but will also include several natural testosterone boosters if you order it right - Avocado, beef, black beans.
20 burritos per month work out to ~$160, which is about what you’d spend on the full-bro supplement stack, but you then need to eat on top of that.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/06/2017 at 18:04, STARS: 1
Little clarification on your creatine info. Holding onto water is a side effect of creatine, not its purpose. Creatine occurs naturally in food and in your body. Creatine helps replenish ATP in your skeletal muscles which is what your body ultimately uses for energy. Taking creatine helps keep your skeletal muscles loaded up with ATP which will allow you to do more reps before fatiguing. It basically lets your muscles work harder. Creatine and anabolic steroids are the two longest studied and proven muscle building supplements. Both have been studied since around the ‘30s. I’m not a nutritionist, but I have a physiology degree (for what it is worth).
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 18:07, STARS: 0
Well said.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/06/2017 at 18:09, STARS: 2
Most supplements are crap, but you’d have to eat a bit over a pound of salmon to get 5 grams of creatine monohydrate. Much easier and cheaper (unless you’re eating crap salmon) to just take a tablespoon of creatine powder with some low acidity sugary juice. It’ll also absorb a lot quicker than the salmon. But yeah, I guess you could eat a pound of salmon before and after every workout every day...
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 18:09, STARS: 0
Haha I totally agree with you on avoiding the crazy stimulants and whatnot. Like I said, I’ve dialed it back a lot.
My total spending now:
Creatine HCl - $13 for 7 weeks
Beta Alanine - $21 for 100 days
Glutamine - $10 for 60 days
BCAA - $20 for 200 days
Multivitamins - $8 for 200 days
I consider it a bit of a luxury and definitely not a substitute for proper eating.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 18:10, STARS: 0
My position is you just don’t need the extra creatine.
And dammit autocorrect! Stop trying to change “creatine”.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 18:12, STARS: 0
Yeah, I should add the performance part on creatine. The “dose” for the creatine hcl I take is 750 mg but that’s a bit misleading. I take 3 scoops on workout days and 1 scoop for maintenance on rest days.
Also good point on the joints. I’ve been getting increasingly clicky joints lately and have thought about adding something for that.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 18:14, STARS: 1
Yeah I updated the creatine section a bit thanks to you and crowmolly.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/06/2017 at 18:18, STARS: 0
A great breakdown on a lot of common workout supplements and some of the pros/cons. I think many people should start with a good solid whey (like Optimum, which is the main brand I purchase) or vegan protein powder.
Many of them already have the BCAAs and Glutamine that majority of people need, and as you said as the workouts get more intense they can add in creatine and other supplements.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/06/2017 at 18:20, STARS: 1
A can of tuna 7 days a week will likely lead to brain cancer. Is that part of your master plan to kill us???
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
03/06/2017 at 18:20, STARS: 0
Met-Rx joint guard is the only stuff I’ve used that has a noticeable benefit. Expensive, the pills are big, and the stench is bad but they seem to work. For me at least.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 18:25, STARS: 1
My favorite whey (because I’m lactose intolerant and prefer to avoid the piles of cholesterol in stuff like Optimum whey) is BioChem . It’s whey isolate from hippie-friendly grass fed cows.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 18:32, STARS: 1
Also, my hippie gym bro indulgent snack is honey nut Cheerios with unsweetened almond coconut milk mixed with a scoop of BioChem whey.
"AestheticsInMotion" (aestheticsinmotion)
03/06/2017 at 18:35, STARS: 0
Good info here. The best thing I’ve found to “supplement” the average lifter’s diet is more water. 9/10 times that is low hanging fruit that can boost performance—as well as overall health—obviously. The other thing is, people get wonderful plans for bulking or cutting, and then fail to realize they have to adjust the caloric intake/expenditure as they gain/lose weight.
I do a lot of product reviews in the fitness industry, and as you can imagine most are either junk (the next brand to send me a fucking fit tea.... ) or grossly overpriced concoctions made of simpleingredients and purposely confusing “placeholders.”
Here’s the most recent product tested. “Betancourt Nutrition B-NOX androrush nitric oxide formula with tribulus & ZMA. ” quite the mouthful. Long story short? Diarrhea. Bad diarrhea. I confirmed via eight other testers who were all over the place in terms of health and fitness. Now I will say, that for an off the shelf Preworkout, the pump was about as good as you can get and there was quite a noticeable effect on focus. But diarrhea along with a very bad “low” starting a few hours after working out obviously makes it a poor choice. You’ve got the right idea putting your own together. Just don’t mix up grams and milligrams for caffeine!
Background: I used to do competition prep for men in physique and bodybuilding, and currently spend more time in the “bodyweight” fitness circles, teaching handbalancing and high level yoga.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/06/2017 at 18:40, STARS: 0
That sounds awesome! Never heard of Biochem but will look into it for sure. Not sure if they did something to the ingredients but recently Honey Nut Cheerios has given me the mega runs after not having eaten it for a couple of years. Tried it a few times and each time it’s zapped me.
"E92M3" (E46M3)
03/06/2017 at 18:40, STARS: 1
This^
Not to mention you have no idea what longterm effects will be caused by all the chemical compounds and bonding agents (like cancer).
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
03/06/2017 at 18:41, STARS: 1
So I can use you as a lifeline when my son starts taking chemistry in HS next year? I don’t know shit about about chemistry.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 18:53, STARS: 1
Can’t say I’ve had that particular issue with honey nut cheerios haha. If you had them with milk and don’t otherwise drink milk much, you could actually be turning lactose intolerant. It happened in my mid 20s. Most adults lose some/all of their ability to digest lactose over time. I figured it out when I ate some ice cream one night then woke up at 2 AM and all hell broke loose.
I found the BioChem whey looking for whey isolate (it removes 99% of the lactose) with low/no cholesterol. Turned out it was sitting in my pantry whole time because my wife had bought a tub for herself before I started looking into it.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/06/2017 at 18:56, STARS: 0
I’m not lactose intolerant I put around an ounce or two in my coffee daily but I have found that the more I reduced my lactose intake the faster I lost weight. If this BioChem stuff is as good as you claim than I might ditch ON Whey just to further reduce my lactose intake.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 19:11, STARS: 0
I’m a big believer in limiting dairy. I take lactaid pills with stuff like ice cream or cheesecake. Mostly I just have the occasional bit of cheese which is naturally less lactose.
Here’s the info on BioChem...
Vs. Gold Standard...
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 19:15, STARS: 1
You’ve found me out!
*starts running*
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 19:18, STARS: 0
God and evolution spent a very long time working all this out. It’s really hard to improve on it. The best training just works with it.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 19:19, STARS: 0
Of course. I do know shit about chemistry. Wait, that didn’t come out right.
"XJDano" (xjdano)
03/06/2017 at 19:21, STARS: 1
How many raw eggs?
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
03/06/2017 at 19:25, STARS: 0
The concentrate is where the problem lies. ON GS is fine if you need a lot of protein and your system can handle it. It’s not bargain bin but it’s cheap enough.
The Platinum Hydrowhey is their lactose-free product.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 19:36, STARS: 0
I seem to recall the Platinum Hydro was really expensive when I looked but I just checked and now Amazon is running some Prime Pantry deals on it where it’s now cheaper by weight than BioChem. I will say though that I like the hippie friendly treating cows nicely aspect of the BioChem.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
03/06/2017 at 19:39, STARS: 0
It is. Probably one of the most expensive ones out there that’s not organic/specialty. Too expensive for me, and I’d tear through it fast.
"wiffleballtony" (wiffleballtony)
03/06/2017 at 19:59, STARS: 0
I’ll be honest I didn’t read most of this. But, I’ve found I’ve had the best results with dieting over extreme exercise.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 20:06, STARS: 0
Generally I like protein bars more than powder, helps me feel more full. My local supermarket usually has good deals on bars. $0.89 for the Pure Protein 20g I eat for breakfast and $1.09 for the Premier Protein 30g I eat before workouts. I get the rest of what I need from food and occasionally do the whey as a change of pace. So I can do the fancier whey.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/06/2017 at 20:19, STARS: 0
You don’t need any supplements, hence the name. But creatine definitely helps when weight lifting and trying to build muscle mass. You don’t need anabolic steroids, but they definitely produce results (and a lot of negative side effects). If we were still hunter gatherers we’d be lean mean fighting machines without “exercising” or supplements. Unfortunately we all live relatively sedentary lives now. My great grandfather was friends with and worked out with Charles Atlas, so I definitely get the au naturale approach, but creatine and anabolic steroids have been shown to work (‘roids having more negatives than positives).
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/06/2017 at 20:30, STARS: 0
Uhhhh, are you really a biochemist? This is a pretty confusing statement coming from a professional biochemist. I’m ignoring the god part (which obviously hasn’t nothing to do with biochemistry) and am focusing mostly on the notion that evolution has some sort of end game and that it always leads to perfect outcomes. I’ve never seen evolution anthropomorphized except by people who don’t understand it as a process.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 20:33, STARS: 0
No, I just said that to confuse people with preconceived ideas about science.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/06/2017 at 20:53, STARS: 0
The only people you’ll confuse is people who preconceive things. One of the hallmarks of homo evolution over the past hundreds of thousands of years has been the ability to manipulate out natural environment (for better or for worse). There is no end point, as the environment (the driving force behind evolution) is always changing. But yeah, Evolution and his cousin God made us in their perfect image...
"StudyStudyStudy" (jesterjin)
03/06/2017 at 20:56, STARS: 1
Be careful. I would definitely look up the side effects of each supplement. LD50, clearance rate, the effect of excess protein and such on organs like kidneys.
A friend who was really into it was taking a lot of things and I was in biochemistry so I looked up a lot of the things and my professor was really good about explaining what happens when you add or remove products of processes. I remember looking up some ingredients and finding insoluble products, strange binders, mutagens, and other harmful things in supplement mixes. The gains aren’t really worth it if you have to be on dialysis from kidney failure.
Quite a few things aren’t pretty, and quite a few processes can affect things like the heart which relies on specific signals to pump in the correct pattern and kidneys which have to deal with the excess bi-products. Upregulation and down regulation are hardly if ever investigated in supplements as well. If you are really into things like this find a nutritionist or doctor who is also into fitness to spend some time going over some of the products you take. A kidney and heart function test would also be beneficial to identify possible side effects before they become disease.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
03/06/2017 at 21:15, STARS: 0
Heh. I’m the opposite. Big bags of GS whey or Combat- but I’ll pop for Quest bars. Some of the cheaper ones (or tastier ones, to be honest) destroy my stomach.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/06/2017 at 21:53, STARS: 0
Look friend, you seem to be setting up a straw man. I never said evolution is an end point, or that physiology can’t be manipulated. Of course it can. That is the basis of pharmaceuticals.
In fact, I have a doctorate in Biological Chemistry, and I teach Biochemistry, Neuroscience, and Physiology at a university. Take that for what it’s worth to you, and believe it as you choose. Now here is the thing about biochemical pathways in the body. They have been fine tuned to work with each other to provide what the body needs. For example, if you try to eat a high protein, low carb diet (e.g: Atkins), thinking it will lead to weight loss, your body will just manufacture the carbs it needs from the amino acid backbones you give it. If you take extra vitamins, your body will just use the small amounts it needs, and you’ll piss out the extra. In some cases, you can overwhelm the metabolic pathways with some supplements and cause imbalance and disease, especially if a person has a disposition toward metabolic deficiencies. So, for instance, there are people with glutamate sensitivity. Glutamate is a neurotransmitter that you don’t want too much of, and sensitive people shold avoid too much extra in their diet, as in eating things with lots of MSG, but generally people will be okay with the normal amount in the diet.
The take home message is that dumping excess of one metabolite or another on the pathways simply causes them to re-equilibrate in response, nullifying the manipulation. Now, changing hormone balance is another thing entirely. Those bind to their receptors and cause drastic physiological changes. Likewise, activating or inhibiting key enzymes that regulate metabolic pathways (as opposed to their substrates) changes the balance of the metabolic pathways. This can be done for medicinal purposes, but has many dangers, such as the obvious repercussions of using steroids. This is why self medicating with dietary “supplements” that are supposed to replicate hormonal actions is generally a bad idea without physician supervision.
Creatine is one of those things that is made naturally in your muscles from amino acids, and you make what you need. There is some evidence in my brief scanning of the medical literature (check PubMed) that creatine supplementation in the case of elite athletes or in older folks with muscle loss may help preserve muscle mass, but there is other evidence that it does nothing. At the same time, there is some evidence that the creatine preparations can sometimes be harmful, although, again, the evidence is controversial. Overall, I don’t see any reason for the average person to spend their money on creatine, and possibly tax their kidneys, but certainly tax their wallet, for no scientifically confirmed benefit. And that is what I said.
As an aside, a belief in God is not exclusive of an understanding of science.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/06/2017 at 22:04, STARS: 0
Were you testing stuff like the multi-ingredient concoctions like I started out with, or the individual compounds that I’m doing now? Genuinely curious.
"StudyStudyStudy" (jesterjin)
03/06/2017 at 23:33, STARS: 0
Note no actual testing, one I think that would probably be unethical to do using friends that take supplements, and from taking classes in sports medicine where my teacher was a professional trainer and the safety presentations he had showing the mishaps with performance enhancing items I tend to keep stuff like that away with a 10 foot pole so no personal testing. I was just looking up chemicals, their data sheets, and their common uses. That is the boon of the supplement market, they don’t have to test anything as long as they aren’t lethal.
From the little list that you had the only thing of concern outright is the creatinine. That is measured as a product that is filtered out through the kidneys, while the uptake via oral route is probably not too high, excess creatinine is an indicator of kidney failure in bloodwork. If your kidneys have to filter more of it then they are being asked to work harder.
Also of note, when you buy items in bulk you have to consider the purity and the process it is derived by. Some chemicals can be made cheaply via certain processes to a relatively high purity, but can introduce incorrect isomers that may not be worrisome in the expected use, but can cause havoc when consumed. Filtering processes to raise purity can also introduce specific toxic contaminants. Just make sure the item is rated for consumption and the manufacturer is US based, at least then you have potential legal protections.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/06/2017 at 23:54, STARS: 0
Any AP level high school student will agree with what you’ve said here. You may impress your average gym bro with this, but this is pretty base level knowledge.
From an evolutionary standpoint, nothing is “fine tuned” to weight lifting. That’s absurd. Our biology hasn’t evolved since the Pleistocene. We are “fine tuned” to be hunter gatherers, yet we’ve be been living as agriculturists (most of us) for the last 10k years. Modern diets are not in line with our evolutionary history. Our evolutionary biology has not prepared us for sitting in an office all day and then lifting weights for two hours.
You’re the one who brought up supernatural beings, not me. Science is an agnostic endeavor, not a spiritual one. I’m a very spiritual person, as those who have read my writing s can attest. I couldn’t care less what people believe in, but science isn’t about belief (for better or for worse) it is about verification. What you believe in is irrelevant. Citing god or “evolution” as some sort of directed process is absurd. Most biochemists or evolutionary biologist would either think you were drunk, or an alumnus of some bs religious college if you ever made those statements in an academic setting.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/07/2017 at 00:10, STARS: 0
Oh I (mis?)read your original post as you were lab testing things for contaminants and such, not talking about testing on human subjects.
I’m talking about creatine, not creatinine. I’m pretty sure creatine supplements are not creatinine based.
I checked the bottles of the stuff I take. Body Fortress which makes the creatine and glutamine is in NY, Now Foods (beta alanine) and Optimum Nutrition (BCAA) are in IL. Actually the only thing that doesn’t state a manufacturing location is the Walmart multivitamins.
"AfromanGTO" (afromangto)
03/07/2017 at 01:34, STARS: 0
Good info!
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/07/2017 at 10:04, STARS: 0
A critical review of the scientific literature, as far as I have read, shows no definitive performance benefit to dietary supplementation in normal individuals with an appropriate diet. I’ve briefly outlined the scientific rationale for that. Attempting to mock and malign me personally in lieu of making an evidenced based argument doesn’t change that. It’s only shooting the messenger.
You might be surprised how many rigorous and respected scientists are also people of faith. As far back as the early Catholic Church, natural philosophers have regarded the rigorous pursuit of scientific knowledge and understanding as the greatest way to revere God’s creation. That is not the same as Creationism, mind you. Anyway, believer or not, the rules is the rules, and insulting me won’t change them.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/07/2017 at 11:37, STARS: 0
There is a preponderance of evidence supporting the efficacy of creatine for high intensity exercises. Not sure which literature you read, but my guess is that they were studies investigating the efficacy of creatine supplementation for endurance training. I’m not saying creatine is some catch all supplement that helps with everything, but it has been shown time and time again to be beneficial for short, high intensity workouts such as weight lifting. I’m not going to list out all 500 studies, but here are a few. For anyone else reading, you’re going to need a physiology or biochem background to understand most of these.
Studies showing how glucose and daily creatine supplementation enables skeletal muscle to maintain increased creatine concentrations.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12660409
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8944667
Studies showing how creatine supplementation benefits high intensity workouts:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24688272
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8001541
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8760078
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11323554
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11581550
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8504634
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11985944
I realize that there are also studies indicating that creatine supplementation doesn’t work under certain circumstances (mostly dealing with submaximal, endurance based activities). However, it has been well established that creatine benefits high intensity workouts.
Interesting paper I found investigating why creatine supplementation doesn’t seem to work in certain cases:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12501003
I really couldn’t care less what religious beliefs you hold. I wasn’t calling you out for believing in god, I was calling you out for characterizing the process of evolution as having some sort of endpoint. Yes, guys like Newton believed understanding science would reveal the nature of god. He also believed in some secret code written in the Bible that told the future. At the same time the Catholic Church also had a habit of killing or imprisoning people that didn’t tow the party line. All of that is irrelevant in regards to the scientific method.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/07/2017 at 13:10, STARS: 1
Thank you for your rational response and literature references. Yes, it does seem from the papers you cite that creatine may improve performance in high-intensity workouts. I learned something reading them, and they actually convinced me that it’s probably a real thing. However, the review you cited by Bird (2003) also pointed out several studies where no performance benefit was found in similar workouts. You cited a paper that offers possible explanations for these discrepancies. I read that, and it seems to offer logical reasons. However, it also serves to emphasize that there may be substantial variability in results. There are also plenty of arguments of detrimental effects of using creatine ( here is one link that summarizes those concerns; it is not scholarly but has references), but they are controversial as well. I had a friend who used it, and he said it gave him diarrhea. That is consistent with common complaints, but is only anecdotal.
So, what’s the final tally for the average guy who is trying to work out and get healthy? Creatine may or may not benefit you in the short term, depending on your physiology and the kind and amount of workout you do, and it may or may not have any long term benefit on your muscle mass or strength. It may cause you discomfort or difficulty, but is probably safe (or at least there is no definitive evidence that it isn’t safe). But, it will cost money, although it shouldn’t break your budget. If you think it helps you individually, then have at it. But, I still think what I said yesterday. The average guy working out doesn’t need the extra creatine. And as you said, most of the other supplements are not needed either.
Oh, and please stop saying that I’m “characterizing the process of evolution as having some sort of endpoint”. I never said anything of the sort. I think I must not have communicated effectively to you what I meant. I meant that millions of years of evolution have worked out an exquisite and intricate balance of metabolic pathways, and throwing an excess of one metabolite or another is not going to change your metabolism because the pathways will just re-equilibrate to accommodate the perturbation.
I do believe God had a hand in creating our universe. That has never affected my science, and no one who has ever read my papers or worked around me would say otherwise.
"StudyStudyStudy" (jesterjin)
03/07/2017 at 13:16, STARS: 0
Oops that’s what I get for using autofill.
Definitely two different things creatinine and creatine. There are downfalls with creatine as well, you kind of have to dig through the bodybuilding websites and the alarmist news headlines to find the actual scientific articles. I’ll see if I can find the one that my teacher referenced.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
03/07/2017 at 13:49, STARS: 1
Well said, and I understand your point on evolution.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
03/07/2017 at 14:53, STARS: 0
Thank you.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 18:23, STARS: 0
What flavors do you recommend? I usually do Vanilla or Chocolate. What’s natural taste like?
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/09/2017 at 18:36, STARS: 1
I’ve only had the vanilla. It’s fine, I mean, there’s only so good any of this is going to taste.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/09/2017 at 19:27, STARS: 0
Nah of course I’m asking compared to ON. I never cared for the strawberry creme or banana or cookies and cream. I use almond milk or almond coconut so I would rather get my flavor from that. I try to keep it basic with the flavors. Also any casein recommendations? I still use ON for that.
"Rico" (ricorich)
03/22/2017 at 14:18, STARS: 0
Just came via amazon
I’m going to try it later today and see how I like it
"Rico" (ricorich)
04/05/2017 at 10:17, STARS: 0
So I’ve been using Biochem for a little bit now and I like it! The only downside I’ve found is that since it requires 2 scoops I am using a lot of powder and the container is smaller than my usual huge ON container so it SEEMS like it’ll work out to be more expensive. Is the 1.8 lbs size the largest?
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
04/05/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 1
Yeah it looks like that’s the biggest container. Keep in mind that with the lower cholesterol BioChem is more equivalent to ON Platinum Hydro Whey than ON Gold Standard.
1.8 lb BioChem = 28 servings for $29 on Amazon = $1.04/serving
5 lb ON Gold Standard = 71 servings for $57.90 on Amazon = $0.82/serving
3.5 lb ON Hydro = 40 servings for $53.66 on Amazon = $1.34/serving
BUT the BioChem is 20g protein per serving vs. 30 g for ON Hydro. To get 30g protein from BioChem you’d need 3 scoops which takes the servings per container down to 19 which is $1.53/serving.
So which one is the better value depends on how much protein you actually need. If you’re good with 20g and like the hippie friendliness of the BioChem in addition to the low cholesterol, it’s a good choice. Now that the Platinum Hydro is a bit cheaper, if you’re just looking for max protein vs. low/no cholesterol and don’t care about hippie friendliness then it’s a bit cheaper.
"Rico" (ricorich)
04/05/2017 at 12:31, STARS: 0
I like the idea that it’s from grass fed cows and that there’s very little cholesterol. Maybe I’ll consider trying hydro whey but it doesn’t seem lactose free from what I’ve read. When I finish this tub of BioChem I’ll see if it’s worth a try or if it’s fine to just stick to this stuff. Again, thanks for putting me on!
Any thoughts about plant based protein powders like Vega? I keep seeing it pushed online but never thought about trying it.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
04/05/2017 at 12:54, STARS: 1
My sister is vegan and uses the Vega stuff but I haven’t tried it myself.
I’ve seen assorted things that your body is more readily able to convert animal-based proteins into muscle mass than plant-based ones but I’m not sure how much science is actually behind that claim.