by "MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
Published 03/03/2017 at 11:16
by "MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
Published 03/03/2017 at 11:16
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STARS: 2
I’ve wanted a FiST for a while, but finances have not been in a position where it’s a possibility. So instead I bought my 05 Matris XRS for like 1/3 as much, thinking hey at least it’s practical, 20 years newer than my other cars, and still has the fun engine - that’s close enough. Last night I drove my best friend’s brand new 2017 FiST that only has like 150 miles on it. It’s not close enough. I want one more than ever now.
On paper the XRS and the ST are very similar, but they are so different behind the wheel. They both have similar horsepower figures, they are both front drive hot hatchbacks, both have twist beam rear axles, both are six speed manuals, both are based on econoboxes, both have four wheel disc brakes. However the FiST has SO MUCH more grunt down low. The turbo kicks in so fast with hardly any lag that you can put your foot down at 2500rpm and still go places. With the XRS, if you are under like 5,000 rpm you aren’t going anywhere fast, and the afterburners don’t kick in until freaking 6,800 rpm. Also, the seating position in the FiST is like that of a small car, where as in the XRS the seat is so high off the floor it feels like you’re driving a minivan. As far as I can tell the XRS only beats the fist in two categories - price, and interior space. I might be able to deal for a while, but man that FiST is such a great little car.
"superhead" (superhead)
03/03/2017 at 11:23, STARS: 0
How’s the shifter in the XRS? My dad’s old ‘03 Camry had the worst manual shifter I’ve ever used, and on top of that a very noticeable delay in the gas pedal.
"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
03/03/2017 at 11:26, STARS: 0
It was pretty bad until I replaced the bushings where the cables attach at the transmission with brass ones. Now it’s just fine. It’s more notchy than the FiST one, which is kinda devoid of feel and is actually annoyingly far away. The Matrix one is right next to the steering wheel. Did that Camry have drive by wire? The early Toyota electronic throttles are absolute garbage. Another reason I like the 2ZZ - still cable throttle.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/03/2017 at 11:30, STARS: 0
Dash-mounted stick shifts in tall hatchbacks FTW! I always liked the Matrix and EP3 Civic Si shifter location. The Si has a much nicer shifter though.
"superhead" (superhead)
03/03/2017 at 11:32, STARS: 1
It had to have been. There’s no way a physical linkage could have had that much delay.
I have a FiST, and I think the shifter is fine, not great but not bad. It is a bit far away, but it’s still closer than the shifter in my wagovan. 1st to 2nd is a bit clunky, but seems like replacing the rear motor mount helps that. The more annoying thing to me is that with my seat positioned how I like it, the center armrest/console is way too far back for me to actually rest my arm on it.
Speaking of 2ZZs I’d love to have a 2ZZ swapped MR-S.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
03/03/2017 at 11:33, STARS: 0
Let me help you clarify your thoughts. Because the way I see it you have 2 options:
1) Keep the Matrix long term and enjoy the sweet, sweet savings. Invest in proper-but-cheap maintenance with small upgrades here and there, while keeping in mind that it is a cheap older car so you don’t want to sink a bunch of cash into it.
2) Put the bare minimum of money into the Matrix going forward until you buy a FiST.
The reasonable side of me would be doing option 1 but I’m stupid when it comes to cars.
"CobraJoe" (cobrajoe)
03/03/2017 at 11:34, STARS: 0
Want to keep the XRS for a while or ditch it? You can get a FIST, you’ll just pay a lot more for it if you’re upside down on the XRS.
But if you want to keep the XRS, you have two options:
1. Learn to love it. Plenty of people prefer high revving engines, see if you can learn to understand why. It’s still a very useful car and isn’t a boring Corolla.
2. Modify it. Get some mods that help it rev quicker. Install an aftermarket shifter to help get it into the right gear quicker. Turbo or supercharge it. Swap those seats out for something more comfortable. Turn it into something you like to drive instead of living with the annoying knowledge that you aren’t driving the car you want.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
03/03/2017 at 11:39, STARS: 0
Sorry to hear that. I didn’t :)
"PS9" (PS9)
03/03/2017 at 11:42, STARS: 0
Well there’s only one thing you can do now.
"Alan" (thefrostyman)
03/03/2017 at 11:42, STARS: 0
YOU FOOL! Never drive the car you want, if you are settling on something else! Your emotions get involved, you get all wanty and needy and MUST HAVE RIGHT NOWy. It’s how I ended up 10k upside down on a new car. I knew I wanted it, couldn’t afford it, drove my friends, killed my credit.
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
03/03/2017 at 12:10, STARS: 0
Then don’t make the mistake I did: Get a FiST, then ride in a tuned one. Just a small flash tune makes mine feel slow now
"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
03/03/2017 at 12:25, STARS: 0
My plan right now is to add some sway bars and summer tires. Then drive the pants off it until it’s paid off.
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
03/03/2017 at 12:35, STARS: 0
What year FiST? Me and two other 2016 owners have noticed the RMM isn’t nearly as bad as it once was.
"superhead" (superhead)
03/03/2017 at 12:37, STARS: 0
2014. I had heard they improved it over time.
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
03/03/2017 at 12:40, STARS: 0
It’s still notchy from 1st to 2nd, but I’m 90% sure that comes down to the rev hang. I’ll find that out soon enough when it’s tuned.
"superhead" (superhead)
03/03/2017 at 13:19, STARS: 0
Yeah, let us know how that goes. I think my next mods will be RMM and then probably the TB Performance traction bar and torsion bar. Only thing I’ve done so far is the gas pedal spacer.
"Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever" (superchan7)
03/03/2017 at 13:53, STARS: 0
Yeah, it’s worth the wait. Hang in there and do it the right way. You will enjoy the FiST (or whichever alternative you end up with) that much more when you can comfortably afford it!
I think you’ve made the right decision.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
03/03/2017 at 14:05, STARS: 0
wild idea:
keep the XRS, but add to it what the fiST has.
a small turbo.
you wake it up down low and get your kicks, but it s still yota reliable.
"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
03/03/2017 at 14:07, STARS: 0
2ZZ’s will go for a long time, but once you start adding boost the reliability goes down REALLY fast. If anything I might get the ECU reflashed by R9K so VVTLi kicks in at a more usable 5750rpm
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
03/03/2017 at 14:11, STARS: 0
I’m not saying add a shit ton of boost, just 5 or 6 lbs to the lower RPM to wake it up earlier.
"Out, but with a W - has found the answer" (belg)
03/03/2017 at 14:12, STARS: 0
Well, you could keep the XRS and spend some money on a ZZW30? The 1ZZ is surprisingly torquey, and you can swap the engines if you ever feel like shaking things up.
"Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies" (jordanwphillips)
03/03/2017 at 14:15, STARS: 0
My list currently is in this order: Tune, Wheels/Tires, tint, Boomba short shifter, intercooler,...
"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
03/03/2017 at 14:27, STARS: 0
I already have an AW11, another MR2 isn’t really in the cards right now. But a 2ZZ Spyder would be a lot of fun.
"Out, but with a W - has found the answer" (belg)
03/03/2017 at 14:53, STARS: 0
That’s why I suggested it, you could start a collection!
"Blackbeard Ben" (blackbeardben)
05/24/2017 at 03:28, STARS: 0
I meant to comment on this a long while ago, but I forgot.
Anyway, a piggyback ECU or flash can lower the lift engagement back to where it should be - 6200 or even 6000 rpm. That makes a huge difference in driveability, and means you can actually stay in lift with the 1-2 shift and beyond.
2003 Vibe GTs and Matrix XRSs had the cam changeover at 6200 rpm like it should be, and with the 2004 they upped it to 6500 rpm unfortunately. You can direct swap the 2003 ECU into a 2004 to lower the lift point (and deactivate the air injection system), but the 2005 changed the connectors if I recall correctly - so you’ll need an adapter harness to make a 2003 ECU with the 6200 rpm lift engagement work. After 2005 I think it all changed.
As far as the handling goes, this can be addressed relatively easy as well. Upgrade the rear sway bar to reduce body roll, replace the stock rubber shifter bushings with a brass and aluminum kit, the engine mount bushings to stop wheel hop and improve shifting, replace any old bushings with new ones, and upgrade those that are true bushings (front sway bar, rear trailing arm) with polyurethane. Then upgrade the struts. I installed adjustable Koni yellows, but any upgrade or high end coilover will be an improvement. I just wanted to keep the stock ride height.
Anyway, do all that and put a nice set of rubber on the car, and you’d be surprised at how well it handles. I did as much myself and loved it.
"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
05/24/2017 at 09:08, STARS: 0
I’ve done several of those things and it does help with the dynamics quite a bit. TRD rear sway bar, poly front control arm bushings and motor mount inserts, brass shifter bushings, and some summer tires have really helped with the sporty feel. But as far as I know the only way to lower your engagement without replacing the ECU is to send it off to R9K for a few hundred bucks and they’ll send it back reflashed, lowering the VVTLi engagement to around 5800rpm and a few other little tweaks to smooth out the power curve.
However even with all the improvements, and stuff that could be done in the future, the FiST will always have so much more immediate punch due to the turbo. The 2ZZ just has absolutely nothing down low.
"Blackbeard Ben" (blackbeardben)
05/24/2017 at 14:43, STARS: 0
That may be true, but what makes the 2ZZ so much fun is that high revving, low torque character. Get it in the powerband, keep it there, and have a blast!
On a good twisty road it is supremely fun - I really can’t see having more fun in a faster car, even though I have one now which excels in other areas.
R9k also sells the harness to adapt the 2003 ECU to the 2005, but it’s a whopping $300 plus the $75-$100 you’ll pay for a used ECU. You’re probably better off just buying a spare ECU to have him re-program.
I know you want to avoid polishing a turd - but it’s really a great car even though it’s older and rough around the edges. When I get my 2004 GT back from my brother (and get his crash damage cleaned up), I plan on building it up as a N/A beast with cams, manifold, full exhaust, short shifter, LSD, etc. Not bad for a car with 240k mi on it.
I have a better car for DD now - a 2009 328xi manual sedan - but it really isn’t as fun to drive spiritedly unless it’s snowy out and I can play rally driver.
If you feel up to putting more money into the car, I definitely recommend a strut upgrade when yours wear out. Aside from that, the biggest upgrades definitely were the motor mount bushings, shifter bushings, and rear sway bar that you’ve already done.
Oh, and a lightened flywheel that helps the engine rev freely definitely adds to the fun and the butt dyno readings.
"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW)
05/24/2017 at 15:15, STARS: 0
Since it’s my daily, I’m not going to put much into it mod wise. The MR2 is more fun than the Matrix will ever be, and I’m trying to get my hands on another Toyota FWD hatch in the form of a 1988 FX16 GTS which weighs approx 700lbs less and has better rear suspension design.
As a daily driver it’s perfectly adequate other than fuel economy. Just enough fun to not suck the soul out of you, it has AC, and a TON of space inside. But seriously, once you drive a FiST and experience the immediate unrelenting flat powerband it’s incredible.