by "Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
Published 02/21/2017 at 17:28
by "Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
Published 02/21/2017 at 17:28
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STARS: 1
“Solid-axle-equipped Mustangs were manufactured with a four-link rear suspension design that requires the rear upper control arms to do two jobs. One job is to locate the axle laterally. Unfortunately, compromises in the design of the Mustang four-link prevent the rear axle from being precisely located. The axle will shift from side-to-side by up to 2 inches. This inconsistent movement of the rear axle causes a rear-steer effect.”
And yet again Ford astounds me with their befuddlingly godawful engineering. No other make of automobile has had me standing, arms outstretched, exclaiming “What the fuck?” more than the Fords I’ve worked on.
"Takuro Spirit" (takurospirit)
02/21/2017 at 17:32, STARS: 10
Rear-steer? Shit, Japanese manufacturers used to charge EXTRA for that.
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 17:33, STARS: 0
I lol’d
"MM54" (mm54mk2)
02/21/2017 at 17:35, STARS: 2
That’s a triangulated 4-link with shitty stamped arms for you. Tubular arms + poly bushings will help.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
02/21/2017 at 17:35, STARS: 0
Maybe there were no engineers left who knew anything about solid rear axles? They all died years ago.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
02/21/2017 at 17:37, STARS: 3
Thats why watts link mods are popular.
Or its just a lie told by Ford people to excuse their cars appetite for flesh.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
02/21/2017 at 17:38, STARS: 1
Yeah, that was the deal breaker on the 93 Mustang my parents had before the Impala. At least that’s what my dad said when we got it.
I sometimes second guess my childhood when I remember things like high speed stability were a priority in car purchases. Then again, it did seem to come in handy.
"TheHondaBro" (wwaveform)
02/21/2017 at 17:40, STARS: 0
They still do.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
02/21/2017 at 17:41, STARS: 0
I’ve read that but I always interpreted it as 2 inches total, 1 inch each way. If I’m not mistaken it was only used on the SN95 and up Mustangs, not sure about the Fox bodies. Coincidentally, this also leads to the huge understeer the factory built into the front suspension. The platform was susceptible to snap oversteer because of the uncontrolled rear axle movement. Ford countered wild oversteer with mind numbing understeer, yay!
If you want that generation to handle well you have to fix the rear suspension first.
That is what I’ve put together from forum and random corners of the internet.
"Takuro Spirit" (takurospirit)
02/21/2017 at 17:43, STARS: 0
Yeah I watched Matt Farah’s LC500 review and UNNNFFFFFFFF waht a machine.
"03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST" (03mach1)
02/21/2017 at 17:47, STARS: 1
I don’t quite know about fox bodies but my ‘03 greatly benefited from new lower control arms. It’s supposed to be one of the best bang for buck suspension upgrades. Much better handling and ride. There’s debate about whether to do to the uppers due to binding issues but I did mine anyway because it was free.
That said, any kind of chassis stiffening item on these cars is very beneficial to say the least... Also you have not helped my strong need of a fox body.
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 17:49, STARS: 0
I’m still in utter shock that anyone would consider any part of this shit a good idea and leave it in production for DECADES
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 17:49, STARS: 0
Just... why the fuck did they not put a panhard bar on? Blows my damn mind.
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 17:50, STARS: 0
“WTF is a panhard bar?” -Ford
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 17:51, STARS: 0
Sadly a panhard bar refit is $400 and a watts link is even more expensive IIRC. Cheaper to just get an IRS unit out of an Explorer.
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 17:51, STARS: 1
They weren’t dead in the 60s when Ford came up with this idiocy and left it in production until 2004
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/21/2017 at 17:56, STARS: 6
“In my defense, I’m constantly drunk” - Ford
The axle *is* located throughout the process to a degree - it’s not flopping around as it did when on leaf springs - but the path it takes under compression *does*, yes, produce rear steer and not in a controlled way like with a Jag IRS. An erratic path under compression/lean which depends on some give in the suspension rubber much like a W124/W210 rear suspension does, but without the 3-4 extra rods each side to cut down on silliness.
I tend to describe Ford designs as being insane and GM designs as being stupid, with Chrysler being a random mix of the two - or possibly ambitious-but-rubbish.
There are reasons for this, and that is that Ford’s design language focuses heavily on the “clever” fix which is usually a misbegotten psychotic hack, GM’s tendency to use a simple solution that’s reproducible (and therefore appallingly cheap, awful, or materials-optimistic), and Chrysler’s tendency to shoot itself in the foot with bad execution of seemingly good (on paper) ideas.
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 17:57, STARS: 3
There are reasons for this, and that is that Ford’s design language focuses heavily on the “clever” fix which is usually a misbegotten psychotic hack, GM’s tendency to use a simple solution that’s reproducible (and therefore appallingly cheap, awful, or materials-optimistic), and Chrysler’s tendency to shoot itself in the foot with bad execution of seemingly good (on paper) ideas.
I want this on a shirt.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/21/2017 at 18:22, STARS: 2
I can probably expand it to more makes if needed and simplify it. Here are a couple more:
Toyota solution: effective in proportion to how expensive, heavy, and stultifyingly boring it is. All light and cheap solutions are not guaranteed.
Honda solution - NEAT! until it gets revised or an ignored small detail goes off like a grenade. Such as when played with.
English cars in general: “It looked really neat when we were drawing it on the pub napkin.”
Mazda: “will this hold up long enough to visibly excite a test driver?”
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/21/2017 at 18:27, STARS: 1
You could always convert it to torque tube + panhard like a Rambler Marlin, because that’s even more sane.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/21/2017 at 18:29, STARS: 1
My ‘59 Lincoln has a Panhard bar, oddly enough.
"03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST" (03mach1)
02/21/2017 at 19:58, STARS: 0
Ya, a bit odd. And the IRS was not supposed to be that much better either.
They can be made to handle reasonably well however. At least the later SN-95's. If you ever look into upgrading the suspension I would look into those LCA’s and welded in subframe connectors. Again, assuming their suspension’s are as similar as I think they are.
I see a lot of people who suggest pan hard bars which I considered at first, but there is a lot of conflicting information about them. Some suggest they actually fight against the four link. It can be a confusing mess and there are a lot of different opinions. I would be pretty confident though that doing anything for an old four cylinder fox would help.
"Bourbon&JellyBeans" (bourbonandjellybeans)
02/21/2017 at 20:05, STARS: 0
Source? I’ve never heard of this issue.
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/21/2017 at 20:11, STARS: 0
Minor point: first gen Mustangs are leaf sprung, and so were Mustang IIs. Which is to say, *bad*, but bad in a predictable and expected way. They considered a very similar IRS to the Jaguar setup when they first went live, but with track tests found that it didn’t make the stang *faster*, compared to leaf, so they left it.
Below is a CTM Engineering setup that is available now, loosely based on the original first gen prototype.
Fox bodies are not only the introduction of the sketchy rear suspension, but a jump to struts in front away from proper UEL setups. HERESY.
"daender" (daender)
02/21/2017 at 20:37, STARS: 0
Don’t forget the S197 IRS prototype !
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/21/2017 at 21:18, STARS: 1
And the Cobra IRS! Which, ironically, was let down by too-soft rubber, the issue that causes issues with the *normal* SN95 rear suspension...
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 22:45, STARS: 0
Just google something like ‘Fox body panhard bar’ and it’s full of products made to deal with the issue where Ford’s suspension is sloppy garbage.
"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
02/21/2017 at 22:46, STARS: 0
Holy crap that is a big chunk of metal.
"G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3" (gbodyman)
02/22/2017 at 00:37, STARS: 1
Audi: “How many specialty tools can we use in the service procedure for this part.”
Lada: “Fuck it.”
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/22/2017 at 09:31, STARS: 0
Mercedes: I’m sure it will work; if anyone complains have Jürgen design the complicated procedure to take it apart. I’d do it myself, but this bracket’s taken me three months already!
VW: It’s complicated enough, sure, but it’s not cheap enough yet. MORE.
BMW: I’m sorry Uwe, we like your design but we’ll have to use it on the X5 and make it fit - we promised Heini he’d get the three series this time. He’s ahead of you in drinking seniority.
"G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3" (gbodyman)
02/22/2017 at 10:09, STARS: 0
Oddly enough, I haven’t found most Benzes to be annoying to work on in terms of procedure.
Hyundai: “Does this help us remove steering feel?”
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/22/2017 at 10:15, STARS: 0
Benzes range from completely straightforward to absolutely infuriating, but my experience with the latter is that there’s always some disassembly trick. Also, whether or not it’s hard, there *is* a complicated disassembly procedure. Order of operations *always* matters. I seem to recall that there is a described “tricky” process for the removal of the C-pillar trim on a W124, which is nucking futs.
"G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3" (gbodyman)
02/22/2017 at 10:19, STARS: 1
Oh yeah, it gets complex, but it isn’t completely stupid (Mazda 6 headlight bulb replacement), painfully hard to access (92-97 Panther DPFE sensors), or just completely futile (anything that’s supposed to fix the steering on a GMT400).
"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile)
02/22/2017 at 10:31, STARS: 0
Mercedes... are... like onions! They both have layers!
Shrek joke aside, I remember one of the first major repairs I did on mine. Guide: Okay, to access the dash actuators, you’re going to need to take loose the upper console piece. Me: Uh-huh. Guide:... then the upper footwell trim. Me: Okay, got it. Guide: Now, take off the steering wheel. Me: u wot m8
"G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3" (gbodyman)
02/22/2017 at 11:36, STARS: 0
Considering you have to disassemble the front end of an 04-06 Sienna to change a timing belt (else access is a job and a half by itself) and ideally drop the subframe, removing a steering wheel isn’t that bad.
"Tristan" (casselts)
03/02/2017 at 01:26, STARS: 0
Aye. I’ve been trying to find worn out bits in my Suburban’s steering. Can’t find anything. Not all who wander are lost... Some are just trying to keep their GMT400 in its lane.
"G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3" (gbodyman)
03/02/2017 at 13:00, STARS: 1
That’s the whole reason I got rid of mine. A cam, heads, intake, springs, lifters, rocker arms, headers, trans pack, and tune are absolutely useless if you can’t direct where you go when you put your foot down.