by "ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
Published 02/19/2017 at 13:30
by "ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
Published 02/19/2017 at 13:30
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STARS: 4
I feel like this needs be revisited, sure you know what oversteer and understeer is, but its important to remember that almost all of what a car does in any situation is done by the drivers input.
Enough of this “that car loves to oversteer” or “those are famous for their understeer” etc.
Passive factors aside, you, the driver are in control.
So its more like: “drivers of X car, love to carry too much speed in to the turn or get on the throttle too early”
Lets stop the misinformation. I urge you to click on the links, as they have a ton of info that is beyond easy to understand if you can read, and have driven a car at some point in your life.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Weight distribution (front or rear bias)
Engine and drive layout
Suspension & chassis setup
Tyre type, wear and pressures
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Cornering speed
Throttle
Braking
Steering inputs
Weight transfer
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Weight distribution
Drive layout
Suspension & chassis setup
Tyre type, wear and pressures
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Cornering speed
Throttle
Braking
Steering inputs
Weight transfer
You will notice that in either case there is more factors that are under you, the drivers control. The term Driver Mod comes to mind, because what a car does is less about the car, and more about the driver.
Cheers.
ETA:
There is certainly a tendency to focus too much on the car and not
enough on the driver, and this way of thinking goes into more
automotive topics than just how a car behaves dynamically at the limit.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
02/19/2017 at 13:11, STARS: 1
Certain setups allow you to carry more speed into corners, thus letting you drive a certain way. Obviously the car doesn’t drive itself. However, cars do allow themselves to be driven a certain way. A driver can only do so much depending on how a car is set up. That’s why you don’t see people drifing Wranglers.
"ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
02/19/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 0
Right but the wrangler part is a straw man, no one is going to race a wrangler around a track.
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
02/19/2017 at 13:31, STARS: 2
I think you’re onto something there. There is certainly a tendency to focus too much on the car and not enough on the driver, and this way of thinking goes into more automotive topics than just how a car behaves dynamically at the limit.
Like when we’re talking about how “safe” a car is, for example: Really, a car is safe so long as it responds predictably to driver input (no unintended acceleration, brake failures, etc.), doesn’t pose a danger to its own occupants (cabin exhaust leaks, fuel leaks, etc.), and doesn’t pose an inherent danger to other road users (night visibility, parts falling off, fuel or oil leaks, etc.). Beyond that, safety is very much up to drivers .
"ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
02/19/2017 at 13:33, STARS: 0
Going to add that first paragraph to the article, since that’s what I am getting at, but didn’t expressly say that. (with credit of course)
"Bryan doesn't drive a 1M" (bryantakespictures)
02/19/2017 at 14:19, STARS: 2
Challenge accepted!
"Nerd-Vol" (Nerd-Vol)
02/19/2017 at 14:42, STARS: 1
You’re right. The old Porsche 911 Turbo’s, MR-2's and S2000s were perfect. It’s just that nearly every person drove them poorly. They were silly to make any changes over the years.
Definitely not a flaw in the car. Nope.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
02/19/2017 at 15:52, STARS: 0
You made a broad statement about cars, not racing cars around a track. Under that notion, the Wrangler would just be an extreme example illustrating how the layout of a car does prevent a driver from doing certain things, not a strawman to your argument.
All of that is pretty irrelevant though. The reason suspension setup matters so much on cars is because it greatly affects what a driver can do with them regardless of whether their racing or just driving.
"ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
02/19/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 0
Clearly this wasn’t for you. I purposely avoided details since one can literally talk all day about suspension setups, and how that affects a car. Not to mention road surface characteristics, and then driver preference on top of all of that.
This was only intended to help people understand that the driver, who ever that may be, at what ever skill level he may have, has a much, much larger impact on a cars performance than he is given credit for, rather than the car its self.
Like the mustang that gets a bad rap for bad drivers, someone smart, like yourself, knows better, clearly, but others will hold on to the opinion that all mustangs do is oversteer cause its just what they do.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
02/19/2017 at 17:39, STARS: 0
However, put two different cars in the hands of the same driver, and see what happens. For example, give me a 2003-ish Grand Caravan and a 2002 Montana. Both minivans. I have driven both. They cannot be driven the same way. In my hands, the Montana was slightly biased towards understeer but was mostly neutral and could be led to oversteer. I could drift it quite easily. The Caravan just untersteered like a pig when I was simply trying to turn a corner.
Takeaway: Caravan understeers more than a Montana. Vehicle dynamics are a thing. Fight me.
"ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
02/19/2017 at 17:45, STARS: 1
Lol they are a thing! But you, the driver, adapted accordingly! That is exactly my whole point. Poeple carriers aside, you decide to what degree the cars OEM tendencies manifest by your inputs and how you approach a turn.
"wkiernan" (wkiernan)
02/19/2017 at 18:03, STARS: 0
There’s never been a Wrangler in a LeMons race? I know they ran a Cherokee a while back.
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
02/20/2017 at 04:16, STARS: 1
I don’t agree with this. There are more passive factors for one thing, such as the conditions and how obvious they are to the driver (wet road, hidden black ice, night time, unexpected fog etc). I don’t think downplaying the passive factors is correct.
What is correct is that the driver is responsible. He might be driving a Viper on shit tires in snow: passive factors for days, but he’s still responsible for safety of himself and others. If he takes a tricky car in those conditions, it’s still not the car’s fault, it’s his for choosing to drive it.
"ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
02/20/2017 at 09:24, STARS: 1
Right, the second paragraph is what I was getting at. Of course passive factors have an impact, but ultimately, the driver is in control.
Someone else had use the old Porsche turbos for example: they weren’t built bad, just a lot of inexperience drivers were way too throttle happy, treating them as if they would sort them selves out rather than the driver, the one in control, sorting the the power out.
The viper point was another great example though. In capable hands the viper was a force like no other, in dumb hands, it was an unfortunate tree hugger.
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
02/20/2017 at 17:06, STARS: 0
I wonder if they warn people though? Imagine the 70s, some unfortunate man hears about this slick new German sports car, steps out of his Corvette to drive a 911. The responsibility is his to be safe, but does he know how touchy the early 911 is? How different to his ‘vette? He’s probably never driven a mid or rear engined car before.
"The Stig's former college room mate" (das-stig)
02/20/2017 at 17:27, STARS: 2
Oversteer is when the passenger screams. understeer is when the driver screams.
also: Oversteer is when the rear of the car hits the wall. Understeer is when the front of the car hits the wall. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, and torque is how far the wall moves.
both quotes stolen from t shirts in my closet.
"ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
02/20/2017 at 17:41, STARS: 0
Good question, I would say so, back in the day the salesman was the only one who could inform you of a product. Where as today, we have the internet, and cars are so “nannied” that they probably just assume since you have the cash you can also figure it out or the cars integrated safety will do what its supposed to.
"ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper" (thedlo)
02/20/2017 at 17:42, STARS: 0
That’s beautiful! haha thanks for sharing!
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
02/20/2017 at 20:38, STARS: 1
Definitely true these days. If you’re driving something unsafe you pretty much have to try to be unsafe. So again, responsibility on you
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
02/20/2017 at 20:38, STARS: 0
Definitely true these days. If you’re driving something unsafe you pretty much have to try to be unsafe. So again, responsibility on you