by "Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
Published 02/20/2017 at 09:15
by "Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
Published 02/20/2017 at 09:15
Tags: Speculations
STARS: 1
Over the last couple weeks I realized that the Zupra twins could very well be $10,000 cheaper than what I was expecting. I also realized that the next Nissan Z will be a great rival to both the Supra and the Z4 (Z5 doesn’t fit BMW’s revised naming scheme by the way). Anywhoody, here’s what I’m thinking:
The BMYotas definitely seem to be running I4 engines and I don’t see any reason they wouldn’t just share it. I also know we’ve seen the 6-cyl versions of both vehicles testing (I don’t think they share a 6-cyl). I havent seen any high performance prototypes yet and honestly I think they are coming after the regular specs instead of leading the charge (that’s a hybrid joke). Now obviously we haven’t seen anything with the next Z car however we know the new powertrains are from the Q50/Q60 and we know the chassis because it’s the same thing Nissan has used for RWD vehicles since 2001.
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(US) Base Models
Nissan Z 3.0T - 300 hp / 295 lb-ft. Around 3,250 lbs. [$31,500]. There will be a bunch of tech and sport packages between this engine and the next. I’m still expecting a power bump in there to 340 hp eventually. I also don’t think the 2.0T would be needed for the US since this 3.0T can best 21/30 mpg.
Toyota Supra 2.0T - 248 hp / 258 lb-ft and weighing around 2,950 lbs. [$37,000]. I’m favoring Toyota using BMW’s I4.
Upper Mid-Range
Nissan Z 3.0T Nismo - 400 hp / 350 lb-ft. Around 3,350 lbs. [$44,000]
Supra GT 3.0T - 378 hp / 365 lb-ft. Around 3,150 lbs. [$46,000]. I do think Toyota has its own V6 for this car.
Top End
Z Nismo RS.
Supra GR (Gazoo Racing).
*Around $55,000, 470 hp, and sort of like Corvette/Z28/GT350 competitors but something is going to be different about them. Likely performance hybrids for under $62,000 (which would be a huge deal).
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Low Mid-Range (no true US Base Models)
Nissan Z ‘Vert 3.0T - 300 hp / 295 lb-ft. Around 3,350 lbs. [$37,000]. I can see the convertible getting a 2.0T option below this but loaded with standard tech and features.
BMW Z4 sDrive30i - 248 hp / 258 lb-ft. Around 3,100 lbs. [$44,500].
Upper Mid-Range
Nissan Z ‘Vert 3.0T Nismo - 400 hp / 350 lb-ft. Around 3,450 lbs. [$48,500].
BMW Z4 sDrive40i - 335 hp / 369 lb-ft. Around 3,200 lbs. [$55,000].
Top End (Plus One More, As Is the German Performance Way).
Nissan won’t go any higher for their convertible however I’m betting a fixed-roof Z4 will end up appearing with M2 and M4 engines (and only with those two engines) eventually. Those are going to make the Supra hype look extremely tame.
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I think these make more sense now with the market changes since last year. Pretty much the base Supra is the turbo 86 we always asked for (sans-boxer which there is room for in the next 86). The Z4 becomes a pretty awesome sportscar value, I’m talking the 718 Boxster lineup with a $12,000 discount. Then the Nissan Z does what it can to undercut both. Yes, it will be substantially heavier than the Zupra but it’s still not outrageous once you get off your soapbox and into the driver’s seat.
Overall, I’m forseeing a really great match up. Remember all this is just me speculating and I don’t have informants. Nope, I just like looking at market and brand trends that way I don’t overspend on a car and then end up surprised months later when they announce the same car is getting a 4.0L flat-six or street-slicks or a CS version soon.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
02/20/2017 at 09:19, STARS: 0
Who would buy a 4cyl Supra?!?
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
02/20/2017 at 09:39, STARS: 0
Worth noting that Toyota has their own 2.0T at 241/258, in various Lexus products...
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
02/20/2017 at 09:47, STARS: 0
It’s definitely in the air. I’m still leaning 70% towards them using the BMW 4-cyl engine though.
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
02/20/2017 at 09:49, STARS: 3
There are lots of holes, but I only have time to point out one:
Why would Toyota use the BMW in line 4 when their 8ar-fts is already in 3 lexus models, makes similar hp, and the same torque?
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
02/20/2017 at 09:50, STARS: 0
The same people who buy the rc200t.
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
02/20/2017 at 09:51, STARS: 0
Oh so a turbo 4-cyl Toyobaru was all anyone was asking for but now, and for the same price it would have been, it’s bad? You can’t please the people!
"Discerning" (discerning2003c5z)
02/20/2017 at 09:53, STARS: 0
“Supra GT 3.0T - 378 hp / 365 lb-ft. Around 3,150 lbs. [$46,000]. I do think Toyota has its own V6 for this car.”
They already have an engine that could work. Though it makes 415HP in the upcoming Lexus.
"jimz" (jimz)
02/20/2017 at 10:02, STARS: 0
honestly, had they not shuttered the brand I totally could see them releasing it here as the Scion S-PR.
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
02/20/2017 at 10:04, STARS: 0
I think there must be another V6 or version below that one. Something that would better support F-Sport models of the IS, RC, and maybe GS (not sure on GS branding).
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
02/20/2017 at 10:11, STARS: 0
I think it makes sense from a Toyota stand point to just leave that powertrain alone and have it go through BMW. There’s still enough costs involved for such similar rated engines that I don’t think switching 4-cyls would be worth it. Honestly everything from no shared powertrains to all shared powertrains wouldn’t surprise me right now.
"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
02/20/2017 at 10:14, STARS: 0
I think I remember this project starting off as a Lexus-BMW venture at one point before switching to Toyota. Would have been funny if it landed in Scion by the end of it. That’s a very FCA thing to do, reminds me of the switch from Alfa Riata to Fiata.
"PS9" (PS9)
02/20/2017 at 10:52, STARS: 0
That’s some wishful thinking right there. BMWs involvement guarantees this car new will never be cheap. Do away with the base model (because dealers will say ‘why not try the FR-S?’ if you show up wanting a cheaper Supra) and think north of $40k only. Remember who you are dealing with here; Toyota still wants ~$30k for their 86. If the new Supra can be optioned up to $50k with a $45k floor, I will not be shocked even a tiny bit.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
02/20/2017 at 11:13, STARS: 0
I have no idea what you’re basing this on but let’s look at some numbers in current lineups.
370Z Coupe - $29,990 - $37,970
370Z Nismo - $41,990 - $45,490
370Z Roadster - $41,820 - $48,100
Q50 2.0t - $33,950 - $44,300
Q50 3.0t - $40,650 - $46,650
Q50 400 - $48,700 - $50,700
Z4 28i - $49,700
Z4 35i - $57,500
Z4 35is - $66,350
Sports car sales in general are in the tank, and while it’s great to see new sports cars coming out, I think the lineups will be focused on what will sell the best without having high production costs with lots of model variations.
I think Z prices will stay in line with the current 370Z and Q50. I suppose they could do all 3 engines from the Q50 but I’m not certain they would with how bad the Z has sold.
BMW had 3 engines on the Z4 and maybe they’ll do it on the Z5. There are already rumors of a Z5 with the M3/M4 motor. Maybe they’d do similar trims as the 2/3/4-series, like Z5 30i, 40i, and M. I don’t think they’re going any cheaper than the Z4, and probably will charge more.
Toyota has in the past offered a couple of Supra trims, in NA and turbo I6 form. Over time, the Supra Turbo has become legendary, and I doubt they’d sell a “slow” Supra or go downmarket with a 4-cylinder. There’s never been a 4-cylinder Supra. All the rumors about the Supra have put it in the Corvette’s price range. I doubt it’ll be a straight up Z competitor—the Z is not as upmarket as the Z32 was when it competed against the MkIV Supra.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
02/20/2017 at 11:33, STARS: 0
the whole point of the supra is having a 6cyl. That is it’s literal raison d etre.
This is like having a mid engined corvette or a lifted hatchback porsche
Now get off my lawn!
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
02/20/2017 at 16:18, STARS: 1
Toyota wouldn’t put a BMW engine in. Too much risk to their reputation.