by "Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
Published 02/15/2017 at 05:19
by "Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
Published 02/15/2017 at 05:19
No Tags
STARS: 6
Curious how many opponauts are unionised and oppo’s opinions on unions. I’m unionised, a union officer, and an organiser for my union (disclaimer: not related to my work at GMG, and I do not speak for GMG’s union or unionised workers at GMG), and I am a strong supporter of unions worldwide.
You know what grinds my gears? I often see some unionised autoworkers complain about supposedly non-union made cars owned by members of other unions. Specifically teachers, which I am. However, I can assure you, if you buy a Japanese car built in Japan, even if it has been shipped to the States, you are buying a union car . My union is at Fuso, Mitsubishi’s truck and bus division , and you’d better believe if they strike, I am out on the picket line supporting my brothers and sisters in their workplace struggle.
If union autoworkers are complaining about U.S. built Japanese or Korean or German cars at plants they haven’t been able to unionise, then I think they need to focus on their ground game. They need to recruit at those plants and/or (preferably and) talk to their fellow unionised workers (the teachers, the civil service, the plumbers, the electricians, etc) instead of playing into management’s hands by insulting hard working members of labor trying to make their dollar go further.
I’ll organise a union anywhere at anytime as long as there is solidarity, whether it is my industry or not. The wonderful thing about my union is that we are amalgamated, which is why we have educators AND autoworkers.
Workers of the world unite. Don’t shit on your fellow workers.
"pip bip - choose Corrour" (hhgttg69)
02/15/2017 at 05:31, STARS: 0
i’m pro union except for the CFMEU (Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union - they’re thugs)
i work in a SME, non union.
"Berang" (berang)
02/15/2017 at 05:35, STARS: 1
My favorite union.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 05:41, STARS: 0
Small/Medium Enterprise? You could still be unionised!
"jimz" (jimz)
02/15/2017 at 05:44, STARS: 1
Trade unions in places like Japan and Germany have a much cozier relationship with the industries they represent. They also have a much higher level of government involvement with industry/corporations than many in the US would be comfortable with.
Look at all the “Government Motors” people who lost their shit about the federal government’s temporary stake in GM, yet how much of VW is owned by Lower Saxony? I guess that’s different somehow.
"pip bip - choose Corrour" (hhgttg69)
02/15/2017 at 05:48, STARS: 0
yeah we could be but we just can’t be bothered.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 05:49, STARS: 0
That’s true, but not all. My union is known as an “activist union” and we... uh... don’t. We’re a member of Rengo, the massive union federation, but some of our members see us as being a catalyst for more active negotiation (and certainly I see us as this, as I voted against joining Rengo, and I wanted us to join the Communist affiliated federation instead).
"VonBootWilly - Likes Toyota, but it's still complicated." (vonbootwilly)
02/15/2017 at 06:08, STARS: 2
I work in a small private medical components business in Canada. We often have problems getting our american suppliers to actually get their unionized workers to produce quality materials for us consistently. They always say they “can’t make” unionized workers produce their product properly to our standard. I can’t believe a company can’t even tell their own employee to maintain quality. Always feels like a missed opportunity when we have to pay higher shipping to have good product brought in from overseas instead.
"jimz" (jimz)
02/15/2017 at 06:09, STARS: 1
Well, I’ll defer to you seeing as how you live there, but in my experience working for Japanese companies their idea of activism is considerably more muted than here. Back in the Chevy Vega days, it was well known that walking by the assembly line wearing a shirt and tie in Lordstown carried the very real risk of having a wrench thrown at your head.
"beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard" (beardsbynelly-Rikerbeard)
02/15/2017 at 06:11, STARS: 0
For all of CFMEU’s pratfalls, I’d hate to see the construction industry without a union.
"nermal" (nermal)
02/15/2017 at 06:15, STARS: 0
I personally am not in a union and really have no desire to be, despite some family members being in one or another. Have always been in sales though, where both compensation and job security are directly related to how much you’re selling.
"pip bip - choose Corrour" (hhgttg69)
02/15/2017 at 06:26, STARS: 0
i wouldn’t have a problem with the CFMEU if Setka and co pulled their heads in.
"Tripper" (tripe46)
02/15/2017 at 06:32, STARS: 2
Not a fan of the idea or execution of unions at least in the USA. I understand why they were put in place decades ago, but now unions are legalized racketeering and or a great way to make a project go far longer than necessary.
"punkgoose17" (punkgoose17)
02/15/2017 at 06:41, STARS: 0
I am not a fan of Unions here in the U.S. My mother was a teacher for 20 years and had health problems the Union would not help her when the school tried to push her out of work when she had health problems. I’ve heard lots of horror stories about Unions in the manufacturing industry I am currently in where you cannot help some one or touch equipment or the Union finds the company. Unions in the U.S. have just become leeches sucking off of the pay checks of others to fill their own pockets. We need people to be protected from the companies that try to take advantage of them, we don’t need a workers tax and crippling of productivity that makes companies more inefficient.
"XJDano" (xjdano)
02/15/2017 at 06:46, STARS: 0
I’m part of a construction labor union. It was a requirement when I started but now that Right to Work has passed in Missouri a lot of people are freaking out. Basicly you’ll have the option to quit the union and negotiate your own scale and benefits.
I don’t see a point in that after being in since ‘99.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 06:50, STARS: 0
It is more muted, but there are activist unions. And we kind of get annoyed at the lack of action from certain unions because of the “sweetheart” issue you’re describing. This is why I don’t like Rengo. I wish they would be stronger about keeping unions... well... unions. And not fronts for further management control of labor.
"yamahog" (yamahog)
02/15/2017 at 06:51, STARS: 0
I’m an engineer in the US auto industry. We (engineers) don’t have unions, and could probably benefit from some organization, especially contract workers. Management does a great job of creating a false ‘us vs them’ regarding the UAW, and many engineers are under the impression unions are no longer needed. I’ve never had any issues working with any union shops or plants, but then again I’m not the type of person who bothers people during their lunch break and tries to use their Snap-On tools.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 06:54, STARS: 0
That is some serious lack of solidarity. Did she fight for others when they were pushed out?
I disagree with you about unions in the U.S., but I also dislike how some union “members” are only in the union in name only until they have a problem. Then they expect help, but they didn’t swing into action earlier when it was another member who had trouble.
The best time to join a union is when there are no problems. The best way to be a union member is to fight for others. Joining when you have a problem and asking others to fight for you is the worst time to join a union.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:01, STARS: 2
Workers are still exploited in the U.S. and other developed nations.
I have been (and am being) exploited (the sanitation situation at my school is poor, there is significant overtime I have not been paid but worked, especially weekends, etc, my last employer tried to avoid paying for my healthcare and pension until I threatened them, and they had to pay two years back enrollment, etc).
I see members every day in varied professions that deal with issues of poor sanitation in their work places, denial of breaks, denial of legally obligated vacation days, refusal to make clear work rules, power harassment, sexual harassment, maternity harassment, discrimination based on race, color, national origin, sexual orientation, gender/gender identity, etc, etc. Everything from, “holy shit, didn’t that stuff stop in the 1930s?!” to stuff which is very modern day (like how hours math gets “creative” to avoid enrolling employees in legally mandated social welfare schemes for full time workers).
"Jay, the practical enthusiast" (jay-m)
02/15/2017 at 07:04, STARS: 0
I was anti-union until I found myself working for a company with 80K people. The divisions in my company that are unionized get incredible, industry leading pay and benefits. Company policy doesn’t alow us to negotiate our own individual pay and benefits so those of us without a union get far less.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:09, STARS: 1
I seriously encourage everyone to join unions. One of the biggest problems with union decline in parts of the developed world is this idea of “Excuse moi, I’m a professsional not a worker/laborer/tradesperson etc whatever whatever.” No. Dudes and dudettes, if you’re not management, you’re labor. I don’t care if like me you went to freakin’ grad school. If you take work orders and don’t manage others (beyond something very cursory like factory floor foremen), you’re a fucking worker, whether you’re a teacher, a cop, a barista, a literal NASA rocket scientist, a professional musician, etc, etc.
I am no different from my grandfather who worked on the craftsman tool line. I have an administration (and in my case, one that is definitely profit-seeking as this is a private school with tuition) and I take work orders from that administration. I have working conditions which are poor, in the sense of the school sanitation, unpaid wages, and vindictive and personal attacks from members of my administration. I’m labor in a dispute with management.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:12, STARS: 0
Find a union that fits your values and goals, join, and get in on the LMA (Labor Managment Agreement). Everyone should as a human right have the ability to collectively bargain.
In Japan, the Constitution actually guarantees the right to collective bargaining. It’s sort of in our equivalent of the Bill of Rights.
"MyJeepGetsStuckInTheSnow" (myjeepgetsstuckinthesnow)
02/15/2017 at 07:17, STARS: 4
Not a fan. Unions protect low quality workers, cost a lot, do not improve working conditions, and accelerate automation of jobs. If an employer is good or bad to their employees I feel that makes more of a difference than if the work force is unionized. If a job sucks find a different one instead of trying to fight “management or “the man”.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:19, STARS: 1
I’m suspicious. Management, especially if in a dispute or in a tough fought Labor Management Agreement situation, has a vested interest in disparaging the union.
Without hearing the union side, how can you trust what they tell you? Now if you spoke to the union itself, and that was what you were told, well, that’s a huge problem. But OF COURSE management wants to blame it on their workers. Maybe they just make a shitty product and as workers follow work orders, perhaps if they want better quality they should invest in better processes for the workers to utilise?
...I don’t know that I believe that’s the case. I’m just saying I could be right, and to take what one side of a negotiation says without critical analysis might be problematic.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:25, STARS: 5
Citation needed.
Low quality workers hurt the union as a whole. I want just as badly to get rid of bad teachers as anyone else. It causes problems for the students, it causes problems for staff dynamics, it reflects poorly on the profession, and it makes it harder for the union to negotiate in good faith. Poor workers make poor union members. Being a union member is HARD.
Employers cannot be trusted to be good or bad. Employers have one goal: to maximise profit if they are private, to lower costs if public. The only thing that holds bad employers accountable so they are good employers is organised workers. Unions.
All jobs would suck without unions. Enjoy your eight hour day, your weekends off, your lack of child labor, and your basic levels of workplace safety.
"If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent" (essextee)
02/15/2017 at 07:29, STARS: 2
I’ve never had any bad experiences with the UFCW. They give me free health insurance and protect me from being fired for something stupid. Unfortunately they also protect all the bad employees from being fired too :(
"Chuckles" (chucklesw37)
02/15/2017 at 07:35, STARS: 0
I have never been in a union. I’m not aware of unions for my line of work, and I’ve never felt the need to join one. Since graduating with a 4 year degree about 5 years ago, I’ve worked for 2 companies in my industry. Both were salaried positions with good benefits, and I was able to negotiate my own salary at both companies. My current company, top to bottom, only consists of about 80 people. I don’t think unionization would go well. I’m not anti union, I just don’t see the benefit for me.
My mom is in a nursing union, and it causes her a lot of headaches.
My dad has been in a management role for about 30 years, and he’s also had a lot of frustrating moments over the years.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:36, STARS: 0
You should have internal processes for dealing with bad employees. Bad workers make bad union members.
Here’s one major issue with your description, you say “they.” As if you don’t see yourself as the union. If you are in a closed shop or a shop where the union represents all workers because of a Labor Management Agreement or because of a law stipulating membership over a certain percentage leads to the union representing everyone, then “they” might really be “they.” If you are a dues paying member of the union, then they are not “they.” They are “you.” You are the union.
I am not the union because I am exec, because I’m president of my local, or because I am volunteer organiser (an elected position in my union). I am the union because the union is all union members “together.” There’s no difference between me and any other union member, and any decision by the exec can be overturned by the general membership, and general membership can call extra voting meetings if required.
I’ve met my share of union members who refer to the union, their union, a union which is 1/whateverth those members as “they.” I always correct them, “No, we .”
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:45, STARS: 1
I’d love to find out about your mother’s union issues. I find that many people who are “in a union” that “causes them headaches” are members in what should more properly be called “professional organisations/associations.” They don’t act very much like unions to me.
My mother, a librarian, always based her ideas about unions on the “unions” to which she was exposed. I put them in quotes, because the description is nothing like my union or how I understand unions. She talked about an organisation she would be forced to join, that somehow existed apart from her, somehow represented her, but wasn’t made up of her, that never asked from her to go out on the line and fight for others, never asked her to go to collective bargaining, etc, etc.
That’s not a union. It may call itself a union. But whatever the hell that is, it ain’t no union.
"If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent" (essextee)
02/15/2017 at 07:48, STARS: 0
The union isn’t active in the running of the business due to our geographic isolation. Union reps only make an appearance if there is an issue or dispute or someone in need of discipline. A new employee might be hired and enrolled in the union and start collecting union benefits all without ever meeting someone from the union. Nobody in the building, even the steward, has a sense of “we” because of this.
"MyJeepGetsStuckInTheSnow" (myjeepgetsstuckinthesnow)
02/15/2017 at 07:51, STARS: 1
So we both agree low quality workers are not good. Now is it easier to get rid of them in a unionized or non-union setting?
Correct, employers can not be trusted to have the employees best interest. But this is 2017 not 1980. This has been the norm for decades now since the transition to maximizing shareholder value and hyper competitive global trade. If your employer sucks find another one or another profession. They are not all bad. Not being able to find sufficiently good employees is the only driver of higher wages and benefits not unions. Hence why an educated engineer (fairly easily replaced, probably management) gets paid more than a line worker (easily replaced with short training time). Unions only push jobs away to lower cost places of manufacture or inefficiently use fixed resources (education funding) until another solution is found.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 07:55, STARS: 1
But you are a dues paying member of the union? If so, your union representative is not the union. You and all your fellow members and your representative(s) are the union collectively. This is collective bargaining, not “some guy who works for HQ and will talk on my behalf” bargaining. I go to meetings of other locals, I go to collective bargaining negotiations at other workplaces. It’s hilarious to see management go “who the hell is this person?” Every union member has the right to support every other union member in their workplace struggle. I am the union, I don’t need an excuse to be there. It can really throw management off its game, which can lead to meeting the demands sooner.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
02/15/2017 at 07:55, STARS: 2
What about collective employee ownership of the company, so that labor is management effectively? There would still be the profit motive of course, but labor would have voting rights for their own interests. (The question would be how the collective ownership is structured, though - there’s ways that it could be structured to make it sound better than a union, but actually let management fuck labor.)
As far as accelerating automation, that’ll come from the increase in costs that comes with taking care of employees properly. Mind you, I’m personally for increasing automation as much as possible - if your job isn’t sustainable, then stop trying to sustain it, just automate it (and don’t export it). However, along with that, I’m of the opinion that cost-of-living-indexed universal basic income, along with single-payer universal healthcare (or a system that functions like it, at least) is a critical necessity.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that half of all jobs, at least in the US, have a negative impact on society, and should be eliminated. Some jobs are actively detrimental in their job function, and some jobs are not sufficiently positive to justify the resource usage, pollution, and traffic (hurting everyone’s productivity) getting the worker to and from the job. Yes, I’m calling for >50% unemployment.
The other thing with COL-indexed UBI is that the base of Maslow’s hierarchy is taken care of, so it makes it a lot harder to exploit workers (in working conditions, in pay, and in hours) - if you quit a shitty job, you won’t die in the streets. And, the labor pool will be greatly reduced, so employers will have to compete more for labor.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
02/15/2017 at 07:57, STARS: 3
“Find another one”?
This is 2017, not 1980.
"Mattbob" (mattbob)
02/15/2017 at 07:58, STARS: 0
Unions are like people, some are good and necessary, and some are bloated sacks of entitled garbage. I’m in the automotive industry, and the laziness and entitlement of the unions runs deep.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
02/15/2017 at 08:00, STARS: 0
I could see quite a bit of a use for an IT union.
IT is a field where there’s a lot of exploitation of overtime, and many IT jobs (if it has anything to do with networking) are legally classified as exempt from overtime pay in the US. Not to mention, H1B abuse especially by outsourcing companies...
One problem with IT, though, is that many companies see it as a cost center, and outsource it at a moment’s notice, making it easy to bust IT unions.
"Stapleface" (patrickgruden)
02/15/2017 at 08:00, STARS: 0
I’m sure in some industries and countries unions probably make a good deal of sense. Every union that I’ve dealt with, or have personal knowledge of, have done nothing but take money from their members without offering anything in return.
Supermarket baggers of all people (at least used to) belong to a union. All that union did was take their money, without any benefit to the worker whatsoever. The baggers got lower wages than any other employee, and no additional benefits either.
Years ago I used to work in a warehouse that was trying to unionize. The union that was trying to come in represented another warehouse in the area. That particular warehouse got less pay, less vacation time, and worse benefits. Why exactly would anyone pay union dues for worse pay/benefits was beyond me. Oh wait, they had to. Union membership was mandatory (non right-to-work state).
When I was in college, I had a teacher who was just flat out horrible at her job. Even the 4.0 honor students in the class had horrific grades (best grade in the class was a D). Multiple people complained about this teacher, but nothing could be done because she was unionized and had tenure. After the same thing happened the following year, the college actually changed the curriculum to eliminate the class. That was the only way to get rid of her.
Finally, my wife works in a school setting where she works alongside unionized teachers. One teacher in particular shows up to work drunk at least 3-4 times a month. Many complaints from other teachers to the union rep go nowhere, again because of tenure. In this instance my wife knows and is friends with the union rep, yet she (the rep) has told my wife that she knows about the problem, but she can’t do anything about it.
So, for me personally, unions really offer no benefit to any job where I’ve had to deal with them. Did they at one time? Absolutely. But if a non-unionized organization fails to offer competitive wages and substandard working conditions, what happens? I say follow the labor. Lousy work conditions lead to a higher turnover ratio, which would cost the employer money in having to constantly train new workers. The problem of substandard working conditions would eventually fix itself, because no one would want to work there.
"Frenchlicker" (frenchlicker)
02/15/2017 at 08:03, STARS: 1
I’ve never been part of a union but understand exactly what you mean. There are ones that are “for” their people then there are the ones that are of their people. The ones that are supposedly for their people always operate unseen except for a portion of a missing paycheck and bulletins put at a factory entrance. My grandfather was a proud member of his steel workers union and they did him as well as they possibly could.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:05, STARS: 2
I’m a democratic socialist, and was describing myself as such long before the Bern showed up on the Millennial radar. I’m regularly accused of being a communist (not true either in the Marxist sense or in the Soviet sense), and I usually preen at it (because it’s kind of absurd). I support workplace democratisation, where management is labor, and ownership is also labor. Yes, please, more of that.
I agree with a BLS (basic living stipend), I also agree with everything you said about automation and the elimination of positions which are actually economic sinks. But we need vocational retraining or setting up a structure where the BLS is used to allow for various meaningful pursuits that contribute to society and doesn’t become a demoralising force.
Humans need work. Humans need satisfying work they believe matters. But I also believe that “pulling one up by one’s bootstraps” is not only impossible today, it was always a lie.
"Frenchlicker" (frenchlicker)
02/15/2017 at 08:06, STARS: 0
I have to say it is very hard to get rid of workers either way. Especially if you work in an industry that is largely unionized but you are not. Also, find another one? Anymore the workforce is ultra competitive. Add to that that non unionized places often pay less. With just those two factors just finding another one is either hard or not worth the effort. Now if you can make your job better why not?
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:09, STARS: 1
It’s also easier to get rid of good workers that management doesn’t like, like perhaps good workers that point out valid issues with working conditions or unfair labor practices.
Uhm. I guess you didn’t notice me saying how I have members, including workers with advanced degrees, who put up with shit that textbooks tell us the labor movement won 80 years ago. I myself am putting up with a poorly maintained building that management refuses to expend adequate resources to repair, which has led to an infestation of vermin and is a direct threat to both workers and children. Amongst other batshit insane stuff.
This is 2017. It’s not 1930. But sometimes it sure as hell doesn’t feel like it’s 2017.
"Frenchlicker" (frenchlicker)
02/15/2017 at 08:10, STARS: 2
I’m going to have to call bs on the bs they are feeding you. From my experience buying union made parts normally results in higher quality but at a slightly higher price.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:10, STARS: 0
Hahahahahahahaha. I know right?!
"If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent" (essextee)
02/15/2017 at 08:11, STARS: 1
There isn’t really even any need for that though. The company treats us well. All the union is really needed for is to enforce guidelines for how disputes are resolved. If the company were trying to treat us unfairly it would be different but as it is there’s no need to rally and become one.
Besides, there’s only three non-union employees in the entire place.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
02/15/2017 at 08:18, STARS: 0
I do think that a lot of pursuits will be enabled by UBI/BLS/whatever you call it, though. (Another possibility is that unemployment doesn’t go as high as I’m expecting, but “underemployment” (which would IMO cease to be a thing) increases a lot - so you have people working a few hours here and there, but not 8+ hours a day every day.)
I know for a fact that in my case, I’d be willing to try a lot more things that I’ve wanted to, if I didn’t have to go to a day job and eat up most of my time, even if it means I’d take a hit in quality of life while trying that.
"Meatcoma" (mastapoof)
02/15/2017 at 08:21, STARS: 0
My father got me into the operating engineers(heavy equipment) and I worked as a member for about 12 years. The idea of unions is great, it is just not carried out as well as it should be. There was greed, corruption and favoritism. I was on the receiving end of some of that favoritism and still find it unsettling.
I think that if you consider yourself able to argue for yourself, you are opposed to them. If you feel that you are getting taken advantage of then you are in favor of them.
At least that seems most common to me.
"jkm7680" (jkm7680)
02/15/2017 at 08:24, STARS: 0
Never been in a union, probably won’t in my line of work.
"Honeybunchesofgoats" (honeybunche0fgoats)
02/15/2017 at 08:31, STARS: 1
I’ve never been in one and I don’t think my line of work should be unionized. That said, I’m very, very pro-union. I can’t imagine how anyone who has spent any amount of time working in a place with a union shop could be anti-union. In my experience working in partially unionized places, the presence of unions meant that the fallout from poor management decisions tended to be distributed more fairly amongst the people responsible for those decisions.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:32, STARS: 0
Don’t take that for granted. You have no idea how they would act if the union was gone. It’s been in place for so long that it’s part of the scenery, so management has “priced it in.” I am often dealing with workplaces where we may only have a handful of workers trying to start a local. This is my own situation at my current workplace where out of a full staff of teachers, I’ve unionised three, which includes me.
I’m out there fighting management that doesn’t understand there is such a thing as Trade Union Law, or that collective bargaining is a legal right, or that employers can’t refuse to negotiate, and all sorts of other things. Literally dealing with management that will fire people as soon as they declare and really not know that’s union busting and it’s a violation of Trade Union Law and other stuff like that.
Take your union for granted, and you will go back to that.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
02/15/2017 at 08:37, STARS: 1
That’s unfortunately the vast majority of unions in the US. I’ve been a member of IATSE in the past, but that’s a whole different animal. Everyone else I know who’s ever been in a union (fire department, police, teachers, etc), have had experiences closer to Chuckles’ Mom’s one where they were basically forced to be in a union and saw no benefit.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
02/15/2017 at 08:38, STARS: 0
I manage a small manufacturing business in a “right to work” state. It’s not your typical worker/management situation, as I also work alongside everyone else, performing the same tasks. I just also have management duties. While there are a couple (two I think) unionized shops in my state in the same industry, they are unionized in name only so they can get jobs from certain companies. The owner started the business because he didn’t want to work for people anymore, and he keeps running it because he enjoys giving people a place where they can earn a living. We pay our employees above what they would make at a similar shop, so I don’t think a union would help them much, especially considering the lack of labor rights in my state. A union would definitely help industry workers throughout the state, though, as many of them are exploited.
Despite being management, I would prefer an IWW style shop organized, owned, and managed by the workers. The current ownership would probably be up for that as well. I feel the modern labor movement was co-opted by management long ago, and while unions do help workers, they’re much too cozy with government.
"haveacarortwoorthree2" (haveacarortwoorthree2)
02/15/2017 at 08:40, STARS: 0
My dad was an union member my entire childhood. One union cost him his job when the union voted to strike and the employer shut down the plant. The second union he was in, at least according to him and the co-workers I met, was a way for the union leadership to get paid for doing nothing other than protecting their incompetent buddies. I’ve never been in a union (or, at least since college, had a job where that was even a possibility).
"gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee" (gogmorgo)
02/15/2017 at 08:42, STARS: 0
I’m also a union employee, and it has it’s ups and downs for sure. I struggle at times to see what all they accomplish with my IMO kinda steep dues, although I do enjoy paid sick and vacation days, a generous wage, excellent workplace safety, and good opportunities for career development because of it. It does however make it nearly impossible to get rid of incompetent, dangerous, or nefarious employees. We had a summer student (not even a union member) a couple years ago who eventually ended up getting paid to sit in a corner because he wouldn’t stop texting on the job. He caused a huge amount of damage to vehicles while texting from behind the wheel when he was following another vehicle in a convoy, “guided” a three-ton truck off the edge of 30' cliff while it was turning around in a tight spot, among other things, somehow we got lucky enough no one died. The union jumped in to defend him, which I suppose is their job, but when presented with a case like that, when the non-union employee is endangering the lives of members of the public and fellow employees whether union or not, and has refused to stop the dangerous habits that lead to the incidents, well... It’s difficult not to resent that.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
02/15/2017 at 08:43, STARS: 1
I’ve worked in closed shops and in unorganized workplaces. My biggest complaint is that unions utterly slaughter the concept of a meritocracy.
The entire concept is about playing to the average. The truly awful are protected from termination, even when it is clearly obvious that the company *and* the union would benefit from a firing. Conversely, there is almost no way to allow those who truly excel to be rewarded for their extra effort. So then why put any extra effort in, even when it has the ability to secure your own job and the jobs of your fellow members?
Second is the concept of a closed shop: you think the union is a great thing, then prove it and earn your members’ dues, rather than forcing it on people. I have no issues with a union being strictly voluntary, and I don’t see any evidence of open floor non unionized workers clearly benefitting from collective bargaining after the cost of the union is factored in (which is what the classic argument in favor of closed shops happens to be).
Third, and actually pretty specific to the USA, is the concept that unions should be able to engage in political activism, but companies cannot. Either both should be allowed (current case law) or both should be banned (I’m in favor of this option). I have never brought politics into my workplace, and I don’t want to deal with that during the day. You are there to work, not advocate for a candidate who not everyone may support.
Unions simply do not provide a service that is currently worth the cost. A lot of the protections are now in labor law itself rather than in union contracts, so what else is left for the union to provide?
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:44, STARS: 0
Right, and that is not a union, and it disturbs me that we’ve allowed that to become the definition of the word when it is so far from the actual meaning of the term.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:47, STARS: 0
So, what are you going to do about it? You’re a member, you pay dues, you are the union. If your executive committee is allowing such nonsense, you need to speak out. Go to meetings, run for leadership, contact other union members... If the union leadership isn’t representing you, time for a change of leadership. It’s not their union only, it’s YOURS.
And the union definitely shouldn’t be fighting for a non-member who has made no contribution or sacrifice for the union and is putting union members in danger. What kind of nonsense is that?
"PWRandSPD" (Pwrandspd)
02/15/2017 at 08:49, STARS: 0
I have not been in the employ of a union, nor have I been at a company that would have unions. I have on the other hand had to deal with unions through my work. From that side of things, I feel unions are leeches and have no purpose. Trade shows, don’t make me use unionized labor please, every time it is a disaster and costs way too much money. I can set up my booth by myself or with the aid of co-workers. I should not be forced to pay $185/hr for each laborer (sometimes have to hire 3-4 due to sq ft of booth) and $350/hr for a supervisor (because more than 2 laborers) because I have 400 sq ft of floor space. I have custom designed the booths myself, and I don’t need your help. It will take longer to explain how things go together than to put it together myself. That and your mandated breaks that I am not allowed to touch my own stuff every 15-20 minutes. Also, I should not have to pay someone from the electrical union $200+ to literally plug in my extention cord or monitor cable(I can plug cables and cords in like a champ). And if you don’t, they cut your cables. I would like to say, it my stuff, keep your dirty mitts off, but you can’t because they have union contracts.#grindsmygears
Another example, union workers outside my bank with flyers whining they did not get a contract the bank was funding. They were upset because the company having the construction done had hired a company that used non-union labor. Sorry that your bid for the job did not get accepted, go suck a lemon in my opinion.
One more: My brother worked for a union, they were on a construction job. His division got ahead of schedule, a big no no to the construction union. They had to take everything they did apart, and then sit on their hand while getting paid for 2 months to do nothing. This in my opinion is a waste of materials, labor and time. If you can have a project done sooner than later, just get it done. Not not that, but if there was a complication further into the project, it would build buffer time. Don’t just rip off the company/people you were hired by, they had to keep paying the labor for people to do nothing. That and when people have to fix something, and it could easily be done by someone there, but they have to wait for a specific/special individual, that is a waste.
"TorqueToYield" (torquetoyield)
02/15/2017 at 08:53, STARS: 2
Ridiculous how much anti-union propaganda still exists and is eaten up by exploited workers in the US.
But it doesn’t help that a lot of large established unions are corrupt AF and seem to only protect the union management.
"Aaron M - MasoFiST" (amarks563)
02/15/2017 at 08:53, STARS: 1
For professionals, even you are non-union you should observe the power of both bargaining and organization.
Doctors and lawyers may not have unions per se, but both state bar associations and the AMA (in the US at least) provide bargaining power that vastly outstrips those of most unions...in some ways they’re more appropriately defined as guilds because of their level of control. Rules against nurses performing procedures and strict controls on education both help doctors and lawyers make significantly more money than straight economics would imply, and it’s because of collective bargaining on a massive and historical scale.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:53, STARS: 0
Yup and yup, sadly.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 08:55, STARS: 0
This is exactly right. Which is precisely why everyone should have an actual, real, democratically run union. Everyone deserves to be able to collectively bargain. It’s a human right, in my view. And thank goodness Japan agrees and stipulates such in the Constitution.
"VonBootWilly - Likes Toyota, but it's still complicated." (vonbootwilly)
02/15/2017 at 08:57, STARS: 0
Probably what is happening, I’m not part of that process, but it’s happened at a few different suppliers, which I find strange. I think it’s that we are a more demanding customer in the first place, but it feels like they have controls but there’s no room for improvement or something.
"Eric @ opposite-lock.com" (theyrerolling)
02/15/2017 at 09:14, STARS: 0
My dad drives a bus and has said the same. Leadership is entirely disconnected and they are constantly negotiating terrible contracts that keep getting longer and longer (and with zero negotiation anymore - they’ve been letting management write the contracts for the last decade) so they have that much less work to do...
I don’t think they’ve even contemplated a strike since sometime in the mid-90s (at least 20 years).
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 09:15, STARS: 0
If a union refuses to deal with bad union members there’s a problem. Bad workers are bad union members. Workers with poor work ethic do not suddenly demonstrate a profoundly involved and motivated desire to run and improve the union. I start questioning the use of the term union in that organisation’s name.
There should be standard renegotiations periodically which lead to an increase salary and benefits, and if securing your own job and your fellow members’ jobs, as well as those periodic increases, aren’t enough reward, why are you in a union at all? I fight for all members, even at workplaces at which I do not work. My reward is seeing the betterment of their working conditions, even though it doesn’t benefit me immediately, it benefits us all society wide. That’s very rewarding.
Unions should be voluntary, but so should a union’s choice to represent you if you are a non-member. Closed shops and states that are not “right to work” (which really means right to fire) often have to do with laws that force unions to represent all workers at a workplace for various reasons. It is not fair for union members to expend finite resources, especially if the union is a scrappy little affair like mine, for non-members who do not contribute dues. There has been much abuse of this in the U.S. and elsewhere, so unions responded by saying, “fine, but if we have to use our resources, they should be members and/or pay.” Lift such restrictions and allow freedom of association for the unions as well as workers who may (stupidly in my view) decide not to seek the ability to collectively bargain.
Unions are inherently political. Being in a union is a political act. I can’t understand the concept of unions being restricted from political activism. Union organising is political activism. Period.
"Dru" (therealkennyd)
02/15/2017 at 09:29, STARS: 2
If employers would treat their employees with excellence, unions wouldn’t be necessary. But companies exist to make a profit, and people cost money.
I like unions as a whole. I think their execution in recent years (talking USA) has been poor enough to garner a bad reputation. Of course I’ve always lived in the southeast, and unions are basically regarded as a communist plot to assassinate Jesus himself. Notable exceptions I have come across are UPS, who tend to offer stellar benefits, despite employing a large number of part time employees.
I myself have never been in a union, but I’ve been in one employment scenario where it could have been a huge help. Management and training materials spend a not insignificant amount of time shitting on the idea of unions as a hindrance to the worker, meanwhile telling you to be happy with your 25¢ raise every year.
One of my current workmates worked for a Honda plant in Georgia and tells me they were not union. I have no way of proving or disproving that so I take it for what it’s worth. He seems to have been indoctrinated with the “unions are awful” mindset pretty thoroughly.
"MyJeepGetsStuckInTheSnow" (myjeepgetsstuckinthesnow)
02/15/2017 at 09:31, STARS: 1
Very true. Having said that 2017 is way better than 2008. Even so if you truly are a stand out employee and an expert in your field that is respected by your peers in the industry (not just at your current job, that is not good enough) people will come find you. If you’re not that person then you will undoubtably get the prevailing wage and average treatment. Is that not the American dream though? Not a house, kids, and a car but that you can put in the extra effort and get the rewards. If you are being treated poorly by an employer or industry you are not a victim. You are a willing slave. Quit. Find something better. Be better.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 09:32, STARS: 0
“If employers would treat their employees with excellence, unions wouldn’t be necessary. But companies exist to make a profit, and people cost money.”
This. That said, as we’ve talked about a lot in this comment section there is union leadership that essentially have taken on that corporate viewpoint themselves and have turned their organisation into something which is definitely not a union.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
02/15/2017 at 09:33, STARS: 1
My opinion is, there was a place and time for them and that time is largely past. The basic idea is making your problem public and much bigger than it originally was so that those in charge are forced to do something about it. When communications were slow, local, limited etc and there weren’t the same government regulations regarding working conditions and pay it was the only way to accomplish this. Now, you can make your situation go viral and outrage millions of potential customers at the click of a button. Working conditions are dealt with through government regulation and you are free to report them if they aren’t up to the mark. Basically, one worker has far more influence than they used to. My point is, they are a largely obsolete model. Some exceptions can and will apply.
Other things I don’t like:
When you MUST become a union member to work in a certain job. If it’s to their advantage to be a union member, their loss. If it’s better for them not to be a member, suck it up--you joined, that’s YOUR fault and they shouldn’t be snubbed for it.
The fact that the “protection of the workers” union model has become an exploitation device in itself. It’s one thing to present a united front with fellow workers, another to take up the position of helping someone by bargaining for them and taking a percentage. See above point. The reason they are required isn’t because “we MUST act in your best interest, and WILL do it because you CANNOT POSSIBLY do it yourself”, it’s because “MOAR union dues”. Seriously. These are the people who claim to be helping the workers by seeing they get their fair share and that it all doesn’t go into the pockets of the one dude at the top of the tree... and they make more, in many cases, than that “one dude at the top of the tree”.
There needs to be something in the place of the union, for sure. The employers need to know that they can’t get away with treating their employees like shit. The employees need security. But, the employees also need to know where they stand—no matter how useless they are, firing a union employee is incredibly difficult. And sometimes it needs to be done. And the employer needs to be able to run a profitable business or nobody wins. But that something is NOT the current model. Smallbear out.
*I am an employee myself and will likely never be an employer.
**I am from Canada, where unions are, I believe, more powerful than the USA--and I’m in the province of Ontario, where they are probably most powerful in all of Canada. Just bear that in mind.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 09:50, STARS: 0
The regulations exist to protect me from the exploitation I am currently experiencing, but it’s not being enforced. Even if I complain, it’s not being enforced. But the union has rights I don’t as an individual. The union can do things which get enough attention to make things difficult on the employer so they meet the demands, or through processes, finally get the government to act.
Telling me that the current violations of law are violations of law is cold comfort when my employer seems to flout the law repeatedly with impunity. Not a hypothetical, this is happening right now in my work place.
I am for freedom of association. A worker should be free to choose not to join a union. I just think that worker is shooting themselves in the foot. The union should not be forced to expend its resources representing that person, either.
I cannot do it myself. Management laughs at me, sometimes literally laughing at me, when I bring grievances, including serious health concerns. I need a union. I also believe in them. I have gone to collective bargaining and demonstrations to support fellow members in similar situations. Actions cost money, especially court cases, we have lawyers we pay, that costs money. That money has to come from somewhere.
The “current model” is not a union. That model is something else, but it isn’t a collective of workers coming together to demand better working conditions. That’s what I’m in, and it’s a union.
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
02/15/2017 at 09:52, STARS: 0
something about power and corruption and absolutes.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 09:57, STARS: 0
Your dad needs to challenge leadership. Unions are everyone doing the work. This happens because members don’t get involved in the running of the union. And then they stop being unions.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 10:01, STARS: 1
Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Poor treatment by an employer or industry is the fault of that employer or industry. Not the fault of the worker. Slaves are not willing. The idea of a willing slave is an oxymoron. Workers without collective power are exploited. Exploitation is abuse. And those who are abused are victims.
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
02/15/2017 at 10:02, STARS: 1
as the private practice, self-employed physician goes the way of the dodo, i believe you will see the “unionization” of doctors become a thing. of course, no doctor’s mother will want to see her “professional” child a “simple” union worker, so youre right, the ama, and other local state licensing groups will take the lead.
but, medicine is increasingly becoming more and more of a technical trade than a skilled profession. this is neither good nor bad. there is a significant proportion of healthcare and medical practice that is simple checks and tests, and following of algorithms and established procedures. thoughtful, insightful medicine is likely 5-10% of the overall healthcare. performing these “maintenance” checkups is not dissimilar from your routine oil change and X,XXX mile service.
factor in that payer groups will only cover practice by those established tests and algorithms, and put the doctor at risk of malpractice if they deviate, and they have no incentive to work outside the established norms.
enter the large corporate practices, who realize they can profit from pulling all local internists under one umbrella, mitigate the risk of any individual physician, and reduce costs by scale. physicans become employees. skilled, highly trained, technical employees. enter unions.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 10:04, STARS: 0
Which is why unions must have an involved membership that functions as a largely direct or close to direct democracy. Otherwise, this happens. My exec, of which I am a member, is always subject to turnover and recall. Always. The general membership can always decide we need to be replaced or ignored. We all get a general membership vote, too, of course, as we are members of the general membership because we are members, but if the general membership wanted our ouster, our paltry few votes, even if we all voted the same, could never turn the tide.
We are held accountable in many ways. And the union remains very much the project of all members on a regular basis.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
02/15/2017 at 10:11, STARS: 0
The “current model” is not a union. That model is something else, but it isn’t a collective of workers coming together to demand better working conditions. That’s what I’m in, and it’s a union.
This. This is basically it. And yet that other “thing” goes by the name of union.
If we stick to cars—what I want to see is the Japanese union model be more widespread. The in-house, ain’t-nobody-getting-rich-off-dues union, opt-out-if-you-want model. The everybody-give-me-some-of-your-money-and-I’ll-get-you-more-which-I’ll-also-take-a-cut-of model that the big 3 use is bullshit, and and frankly I believe many workers would be better off if they could opt out of that.
"Chuckles" (chucklesw37)
02/15/2017 at 11:00, STARS: 0
My mom works in the health care center at a public university here in the US. It’s basically a big doctor’s office. A lot of her frustrations dealt with scheduling. Do you need to take a day off? If so, you can’t just get a friendly coworker to cover for you. You have to submit a formal request, and if it’s approved, every nurse there has to be offered the chance to take the shift, based off of seniority in the union. They work 2 overlapping shifts. The nurses rotate weekly between the daytime shift (8am-5pm) and the evening shift (11am-8pm). One of my mom’s coworkers wanted to work exclusively day shifts because she has younger children and wants to be home when they’re out of school. My mom volunteered to shift exclusively to evening shifts, both to help her coworker and because it works better for her. Management approved but the union rep shot it down.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
02/15/2017 at 11:28, STARS: 0
*sigh* Right-to-work is not the same as at-will employment doctrine. Right-to-work laws simply ban union security agreements, which are the mechanism to enforce the closed shop model (agreements by which forced tribute to the union to pay for the collective bargaining portion of their activities qualify as well).
If you believe that you should have salary and benefit negotiations on a regular basis, there is nothing stopping you from coming to an agreement with your employer to do that as an individual. Some companies even build that into their employee handbooks (It’s called the End of Year Review).
If you also believe that unions are inherently political, and should be able to be active in the political process, then it also follows that companies or other types of associations who want to participate in the political process can also do so.
id est: Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission was decided correctly.
"jmedarts" (jmedarts)
02/15/2017 at 11:39, STARS: 0
Private Sector Unions - if you want to put your employer out of business that is between you and them, and honestly they probably did something to deserve it. But you shouldn’t be forced to join a union to take a job, and the company shouldn’t be forced to pull union dues from your check. The right to free association covers the right NOT to associate.
Public Sector Unions? Now you are trying to put the government out of business. Collective bargaining by public sector employees should be illegal, period, end of story. You have the right to petition the government for redress of grievances, you have the right to freely associate to petition them. You do NOT have more rights than your fellow citizens and you do not have the right to threaten your fellow citizens. When your public sector union shows up at the govt budget meeting the message is “pay up or else” - maybe your kids school gets it, your laws dont get enforced, your property records aren’t kept, etc, etc, etc. This is nothing but a protection racket, period. They arrest the mafia for this stuff, but somehow unions are proud of it. Disgusting. And then to have the unions fund the campaign of the people making the budget?!?! Absolute corruption pure and simple.
"Patrick Nichols" (pnichols)
02/15/2017 at 11:53, STARS: 0
I like the bargaining power of unions. I dislike how exclusive they can be for certain people trying to join the industry. I dislike the blind protections that are given to union members, specifically in the cases of players unions that protect PED users, police unions that shield their own even when they commit heinous crimes (therefore developing mistrust), teachers unions that have guaranteed tenure for clearly incompetent or worse inappropriate teachers. Unions are good. How they have been implemented and used as political backing is bad.
"TheD0k_2many toys 2little time" (thed0ck)
02/15/2017 at 11:56, STARS: 0
get rid of them. My dad retired out of his early because it was a pitiful example and poorly run
"punkgoose17" (punkgoose17)
02/15/2017 at 12:42, STARS: 0
She did fight for others when they had issues. She also tried to get people to fight to keep benefits instead of a minor pay raise that was only helpful if you were never sick.
In the U.S. if you work a job where there is a union you have to be in the union. In the late 1970s my father in law had to change his name because he and his father were receiving death threats because his father did not join the union.
"gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee" (gogmorgo)
02/15/2017 at 13:17, STARS: 0
Well, because the students aren’t really treated as people by the employer, the union’s taken pity on them I suppose. I suspect that they’ve decided to bring them into the family so to speak without charging them dues because the sorts of places our employees end up usually don’t lead to cheap living and they don’t make much as it is. Most of the students at our location end up with a part time job as well.
There’s also a bit of an internal battle whether or not you’d want to stop them from defending employees. If they get lenient on one case it opens up the floor to the employer to start pushing employees around. That’s the logic I got when I pushed my local about it, but at the same time that while case was ridiculous. Making him sit in the corner (well, keeping him doing semi-useful tasks that didn’t pose a threat) for a month till his term ran out and simply not inviting him back the next summer apparently also was easier/faster than navigating the proper firing channels.
I’ve done my best to get involved, but the communication channels they use and the locations they pick and the short notice they give for general meetings make it difficult for seasonal employees like myself to attend when we aren’t on-strength. It almost seems like they do it on purpose sometimes. Everyone on the local exec is volunteer, but it’s become a bit of an old-boy’s club, and it seems like very few employees are driven enough to vote against the establishment, which makes it frustrating for people like myself.
"Aaron M - MasoFiST" (amarks563)
02/15/2017 at 13:29, STARS: 0
Interesting insights, thanks for adding to the discussion!
"MyJeepGetsStuckInTheSnow" (myjeepgetsstuckinthesnow)
02/15/2017 at 15:35, STARS: 0
Hahaha. Ok. You keep fighting the good fight.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 0
1) Agreed, but the union has the right not to be forced to represent non-union members.
2) ....yeah, no. Sorry. Government workers are workers. All workers deserve a union. Period.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 16:57, STARS: 0
Don’t sigh at me. I’m from Texas. Talk about having no protections under any circumstances because of the nonsense of at-will. I am against forcing people to join unions. I am also against unions being forced to represent all workers in order to organise some workers at a workplace. Both of those are wrong. The union deserves a financial and time contribution from every worker it represents. If that is all workers, all workers must contribute. Full stop.
Yes there is. The employer says no. You say yes. The employer says no. You say, actually, really, YES. The employer says, you have become disruptive, you are now fired. Individually we are weak. Together we are strong. Hence the need for unions. This is not hypothetical. I have seen it, I have experienced it. And in Japan Labor Standards doesn’t enforce contract law or deal with arbitration, usually. Labor Commission only deals with disputes between unions and management. Your only recourse is hire a labor lawyer and sue, and maybe you’ll win, maybe you won’t, more likely you’ll settle on some pitiful monetary award and you won’t be reinstated. Good luck.
Unions are political because those who join them are the many who are weak joining together in order to balance out the few who are strong. The mere act of telling an employer, “no! You must negotiate! We are equal and you need to come to table!” is overtly, undeniably political. There’s no comparison to corporations trying to buy even more power through the silliness of CU.
"jmedarts" (jmedarts)
02/15/2017 at 19:13, STARS: 0
(2) they can be in a union. It can lobby the govt just like any other association. Allowing them to threaten or do actual violence to their fellow citizens is beyond wrong.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 19:34, STARS: 0
2) ...I’m confused, threaten or do actual violence to their fellow citizens? What about the threats or actual violence from management? Just because management may be elected or appointed by those elected doesn’t mean management abuses cease to be abuse conceptually. Just because your employer is the government doesn’t mean you should lose the ability to collectively bargain with all the tools afforded to other unionised workers.
One of the biggest crocks of shit I’ve heard, and I’ve heard it from conservative members of the Labor Commission here is that the services provided by government workers are in some kind of special, sacred productivity whereby it’s just horrible if they do anything to in any way cause conflict in the work place when demanding their legal right to redress for work place abuses.
I especially hear this in regards to public school teachers, which due to current precedent (I one day hope to overturn), do not have the right in Japan to strike. Those people always wail “but what about the children!!!!” but do nothing to help us fight for healthier schools, better facilities, a less stressful work-life balance, proper bay for overtime, etc, etc. You idiots, we are doing this because better working conditions means better teachers which means better quality of education for students! We’re doing it because of the children!
Likewise, many public service employees care deeply about the services they render to fellow citizens, but they shouldn’t have to endure abuses because a temporary halt to efficiency is somehow horrific and morally bereft, when in addition to receiving redress, the goal is better service in perpetuity in the future!
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
02/15/2017 at 20:39, STARS: 1
Oh lose the attitude. You got your terminology mixed up and you are lashing out at being called out on it. Why should we take you seriously if you can’t keep them straight?
If your employer won’t engage in a compensation review upon your request, or you don’t feel they are compensating you fairly, then QUIT. There are plenty of employers who will gladly pay you fairly for your skills and demonstrated ability. This is the beauty of the knowledge economy! It is harder to replace a mind than it is to replace hands. So find those employers, and go work for them. Life is too short to work for bad employers.
The mere act of telling an employer, “no! You must negotiate! We are equal and you need to come to table!” is overtly, undeniably political.
It’s also overtly, undeniably wrong . You have no natural right to force anyone to negotiate anything. Show your value to the marketplace, and you will be rewarded.
My career has been far better in my non-union workplace than it ever was in the closed shop I worked in. I negotiate with my bosses as an individual, and I respect them and produce quality work for them, and in turn they respect me and I am paid above market average for my position.
Leave those of us who want no part of this philosophy of failure, this creed of ignorance, this gospel of envy, alone.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 22:11, STARS: 0
You’re the one who sighed at me. I simply responded to your own attitude. I won’t cut my attitude out, I’m passionate about this, it’s a matter of social equity. Call me a silly SJW or whatever, I guess. I’m used to it.
I don’t think I got my terminology mixed up, but it’s more than possible that I have my terminology incorrect. I don’t see much of a difference between at-will or right-to-work. They both set up situations where unions are not allowed to control their own representation. If you want union representation, join a union. If you don’t, cool, but don’t rely on laws and policies that force unions to represent you without doing your fair share.
What if all your employers won’t engage in negotiation? I’d love to live in your world where the majority of management is willing to negotiate instead of living in the world I do, where nearly every employer I have had has been unwilling to negotiate except when directly threatened with legal or union action.
It is absolutely right to demand negotiation because of the historical imbalance between labor and capital/workers and management. And Japan, thank goodness, they understand that, and so Trade Union Law makes it illegal for employers to refuse to enter into collective bargaining with legally constituted unions and it’s illegal to negotiate in bad faith.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/15/2017 at 22:17, STARS: 0
...sounds like you don’t have any solidarity. A union without solidarity is a car without an engine. It might look pretty, but it does nothing and goes nowhere.
"jmedarts" (jmedarts)
02/16/2017 at 08:38, STARS: 0
I appreciate your thoughtful responses, and your obvious passion for doing your job well.
Of course you are correct - “What about the threats or actual violence from management? Just because management may be elected or appointed by those elected doesn’t mean management abuses cease to be abuse conceptually.” No one has any right to abuse anyone else. Abuses must be called out immediately.
And I agree 100% that quality public education is a necessity that benefits everyone tremendously.
But elected officials were elected precisely to judge where to apply limited resource. They weigh costs and benefits and make choices. Are they perfect? Of course not - but we have all agreed that it is the electorate who will judge their performance.
A union exists to make costs artificially high. Any thing is worth precisely what it costs to replace it. A person gets paid what their manager thinks that number is. A union exists to force those two sentences as far apart as it possibly can. Sorry, but if you are in a union, you are overcompensated in one form or another (unless you are in the most useless union in history).
Maybe you actually are on the top side of the performance curve and worth more than you are paid, but since you are in a Union we have no way of knowing that. If that’s the case I’m sure your fellow citizens would be grateful for your sacrifice. It does not mean they shouldn’t be furious about the poor teachers the union is enabling.
By overpaying teachers (or police, or motor vehicle clerks, mayors, senators, presidents, etc) there are less funds available for new school buildings, classroom technology, books, supplies, the homeless, public health care, infrastructure, whatever.
I appreciate your point that better working conditions make for better public education. Your union should be pointing that out as loudly as possible in it’s advocacy. But it’s not your job, or the unions job, to make the choice. It’s certainly not the unions job to force the choice, and that’s exactly what they do in collective bargaining. Election spending (without collective bargaining of course), public advocacy, all that is fine. But collective bargaining gives your union members more power than their fellow citizens. When combined with the campaign dollars they spend on the elected officials who agree to more spending, it’s far more power, and it’s wrong.
Is their waste in other areas of the government that should be cut back? Absolutely. But waste in one area is not an excuse for waste in another.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/16/2017 at 09:29, STARS: 0
Wow do I disagree with pretty much everything you’ve written.
Firstly, I know all about supply and demand, I’m a social studies teacher. This means I teach basic economics to JHS and could teach economics as a total class in SHS. I’m primarily a civics teacher, though.
I introduced these concepts just Wednesday to seventh graders. I know about how the price you offer must be what the customer is willing to pay. Problem is, this is a model, and like all models, it applies only in a vacuum. Reality is messier. Often times significantly so. In the case of labor, there’s an old socialist saying, “capital is mobile, labor is not.” And one can go further, capital can search for places where it is best utilised to replicate itself. Labor? It starves, because labor is people, and in the supposedly gone bad old days of the industrial revolution, labor was at a massive disadvantage. Management could always find someone else to do the work, but the worker couldn’t choose to say no, lest they and their families starve and die. Thus wages were kept artificially low.
We are still today living with this legacy, and workers still have far less power, individually, to work with management to find actual price equilibrium. Thus wages still are kept artificially low. Because management and individual workers do not start out from a level playing field. Capital will not suffer hardship if the price is not agreed upon, because eventually capital will find someone willing to accept artificially low wages in order to avoid poverty, the debt cycle, etc. But the worker will. This is why I call nonsense every time I hear “get another job!” Workers, individually, never have the resources or power to negotiate a true equilibrium price. Enter unions that collectively can stop or disrupt the flow of capital (except in terms of scabs), the same way labor is often stopped or disrupted (you know, poverty, illness, misery, and death). This means labor management agreements are far better approximations of equilibrium price than you suggest by far. Collective bargaining makes sure wages are not kept artificially low, not make them artificially high. Labor is people. People are not products. People suffer. This means labor has added value and should not be treated as if it is a mere commodity. It’s worth more.
Furthermore, collective bargaining is a human right. In Japan, that is so clearly recognised, it’s in the Constitution. There is no right to refuse collective bargaining by management. There is no right for management to negotiate in bad faith. They are legally required to seriously enter into negotiations. Collective bargaining doesn’t harm fellow citizens. Collective bargaining makes for a more equitable and safer society.
"Killing-Machine" (killing-machine)
02/16/2017 at 10:04, STARS: 0
This 1000 times. We have literally stopped doing trade shows, we found it much cheaper and easier to run small shows with local suppliers.
I was in the carpentry union for 2 months, Maybe less, i was siting at the miter saw with a list of about 60 cuts to do, half way through my cuts I have a stack of scrap around me that almost made it dangerous to keep working. I went and grabbed a rolling barrel and started loading it... one of the guys in charge of cleaning started yelling at me that I was doing his job... I said sorry I did not know, could you please help me and take care of this? He goes your not my boss. Push everything aside keep working, bring all the cuts to the 2 guys installing, Steward walks over tells me he needs a word with me... yells at me about cleaning up, he then tells me to slow down when I work, no one needs a show off. Many instances like this in 2 months,that is also not including guys putting bumper stickers on my truck, my tool box, me removing then putting 3 on the next day.
"gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee" (gogmorgo)
02/16/2017 at 10:43, STARS: 0
Can’t disagree. I don’t think it helps much that the bulk of our employees are under 25 and don’t generally stick around for more than a few summers. Sad nature of working in a mostly seasonal field. I don’t think it’s helpful either that the rural nature of our locations tends to mean the permanent employees don’t really know much about what unions are for and how to make them work, given there are very few unionized workplaces around.
"jmedarts" (jmedarts)
02/17/2017 at 17:48, STARS: 0
But we’re not talking about capital and labor, we’re talking about government and labor. What you say has a lot to it in the private sector, and while i do not agree with all of it, there are really solid points in there. I hope I made it clear in my original reply that my views on private vs public sector unions are quite different.
The former US President Obama was fond of saying (I’m paraphrasing) “government is what we do together”. I think he is right. A public sector union fundamentally changes that. It becomes more like “government is what I will do to you for them”.
From labor’s viewpoint capital and government may not look all that different. For your fellow citizens they look very different.
great conversation. Your students are very fortunate to have you. Best of Luck to you.
"Kat Callahan" (kyosuke)
02/17/2017 at 17:57, STARS: 0
I think you’d be right if “government” was really what we did together. But government below maybe the Deputy Secretary and Chief of Staff level becomes not people who were appointed by elected officials chosen by the people... but hired. As employees. Therefore, workers. Government creates a hierarchy based on the capital/labor models of the past which leads to public sector workers in situations similar or the same as their private sector worker brethren. Enter public sector unions to address these situations.
If we had a truly representative government, where each and every member of the bureaucracy was part of a representative whole, then sure. You’d be right. But we don’t. The clerk I talked to at the SSA when I needed to change my SS card from Callahan to Ayukawa sure didn’t think of herself as a representative of the people. She saw herself as a worker... EMPLOYED by representatives of the people, and subject to their abuses or favors.
Also, thank you for your kind words
P.S. Here’s my notes for yesterday’s 7th grade class. Ironically, I did not choose to write this because of the Keep Oppo Union conversations, this is actually covering concepts in the textbook we were covering that day. We’re finishing up this particular textbook and are on basic economics. It’s considered part of civics at this level, so it’s only a chapter.
