by "E90M3" (e90m3)
Published 02/03/2017 at 10:29
by "E90M3" (e90m3)
Published 02/03/2017 at 10:29
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STARS: 13
By border wall, I’m referring to the Maginot Line built on France’s border with Germany. This fortification was built in the inter war years to repeat a German invasion of France as seen during WWI.
As you can see by this map, the French built fortifications on their border with Germany but stopped at the Luxembourg border as they were allies and the French didn’t want to put fortifications on their border with an ally. Basically, since it didn’t extend to the Atlantic, Germany just invaded through Belgium when they invaded in 1940.
This post doesn’t really deal with the history of the line, more of a photo dump from when I visited in 2013.
So when I graduated college in December 2012, I had a job with an oil field service company. Only problem was that they wanted me to start in August of 2013. What am I going to do with 8 months off? Well I might as well go somewhere I’ve never been before. One of my high school friends and I went to the 12 hours of Sebring in 2012 and had wanted to go to the 24 hours of Le Mans. Perfect we’ll go to Le Mans and plan a trip around that.
So we plan a trip and I’m sure as some of you know most museums, including the Porsche museum are closed on Mondays. Well for some reason we scheduled there on a Monday. We’re in Stuttgart with no idea what to on that Monday. I really like history, especially mid-20th century European history. Stuttgart isn’t too far from France, so I start thinking what war related thing we can do. Obviously there isn’t much in Germany, so we’re going to have to go to France.
That’s when I realize that the Maginot Line is only about 2 hours away. Plus we get to drive on the autobahn more, perfect.
We ended up visiting this place . It’s the largest fortification open to the public, we lucked out. If you want to read a little more about it.
Now to the pictures.
It was worth the visit, I really enjoyed it and would recommend it to anyone that’s interested in history. My friend who isn’t interested in history enjoyed it.
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
02/03/2017 at 10:33, STARS: 0
Very cool.
Going around walls is much easier than going through them.
"Sweet Trav" (thespunbearing)
02/03/2017 at 10:33, STARS: 4
How did those fixed fortifcations work end up working against the Germans? oh they just found another way in... Something about history repeating itself?
"FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem" (fuelstratifiedinjection)
02/03/2017 at 10:38, STARS: 0
Gonna have to go there and to Verdun sometime. My great grandfather fought in WWI and luckily made it out.
"Rainbow" (rainbeaux)
02/03/2017 at 10:39, STARS: 2
This reminds me so much of Fallout.
"MrDakka" (mrdakka)
02/03/2017 at 10:43, STARS: 0
Static fortifications don’t work too well against manuever warfare
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 10:47, STARS: 1
Verdun is some place I’d also like to visit one day.
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 10:48, STARS: 0
I’d be interesting to see how history would be different if they had fortified their entire east border. The Maginot line was one of the last places in France to surrender.
"Little Black Coupe Turned Silver" (littleblackcoupe)
02/03/2017 at 10:49, STARS: 0
I’m not sure if this is where I was or not. It looks similar, except for the lite-bright style signs in the tunnels, I don’t remember them. The downside of being on a tour; you didn’t always know exactly where you were. I know we were at some part of the Maginot Line at least, and we crossed into Germany at Strasbourg.
"facw" (facw)
02/03/2017 at 10:49, STARS: 2
Yep. In WWI the Germans made their main push into France by invading through Luxembourg and Belgium, so the French wisely decided not to guard that and immediately paid the price in WWII. If recollection serves, they were thinking that the Germans might respect Belgian neutrality, and that the Ardennes forest would prove too dense for the Germans to move a modern mechanized force through efficiently. Both of those of course turned out not to be true.
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 10:50, STARS: 0
There are more than one of these places open to the public, this one just happened to be one we picked.
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 10:52, STARS: 4
Exactly, I’m surprised they made the mistake of Germany respecting Belgian neutrality twice.
"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228)
02/03/2017 at 10:54, STARS: 0
Neat! Thanks for uploading all the pics, and sounds like a great road trip :)
But, what you’re really saying is...when the Mexican invasion happens they’ll probably invade the Caribbean first and come through Florida?
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 11:05, STARS: 1
It was a great trip, I was planning on making it back over there again last year, then I lost my job. I hope to do another European road trop again. We put over 2000 km on a B-Class in 10 days.
The logistics of the amphibious invasion of Normandy are mind boggling, and that was only across the channel. An invasion of that magnitude of that would be hard to do again.
I don’t know if you want “The Man in the High Castle” but I find the premise that the Japanese would be able to mount a successful amphibious of the US during WW2 almost comical. Or the Germans for that matter. One of the reasons we were able to invade France was we had Britain as a base of operations, the only things similar to that to the US would be Cuba and that’s 90 miles.
"Out, but with a W - has found the answer" (belg)
02/03/2017 at 11:12, STARS: 1
Europpomeet 2018? + Vosges
"FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem" (fuelstratifiedinjection)
02/03/2017 at 11:20, STARS: 0
I’d be down for that.
Seven weeks until this years meet, can’t wait! We should start booking though. I hope Rico heard back from the folks that offer that castle.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
02/03/2017 at 11:34, STARS: 0
Yep, and conversely, up until WWII, the technology to invade Great Britain just wasn’t there (which is why so many societies loved it over the millennia). Even then, it was a huge barrier to Hitler. D-Day was amazing, but like you said, only really possible because you can see France from England. I’ve been to Dover twice — they have tunnels, command centers, and hospitals carved into the white cliffs that you can tour. I’ve never done much WWII tourism on the Continent, but it’s high on my list. Great pics.
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 11:42, STARS: 0
Hitler was also a huge barrier to Hitler, he had a chance to destroy the British army at Dunkirk and to win the Battle of Britain. I’m always interested in the what ifs.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
02/03/2017 at 11:49, STARS: 1
That’s one of the biggest pieces of evidence that Hitler was a closet Anglophile and might have even left them alone if it weren’t for the shitstorm he was creating elsewhere (and the British intervention). There’s just no way to maintain an uneasy tension with a madman.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
02/03/2017 at 11:50, STARS: 1
Awesome post. Thanks!
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 1
Glad you enjoyed it.
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
02/03/2017 at 12:17, STARS: 0
Whoa, no. He was not a “closet Anglophile” by any means, but he hated the USSR and the communists (and most of Eastern Europe) even more than the British. His great idea at some stage was to convince Churchill (a staunch anti-communist) to join forces to defeat the Soviet Union (and communism). What the Nazis really wanted was to expand eastward so that they could have “vital space” (and the grain from Ukraine, the oil from the Caucasus and so on).
Of course once the Soviet Union would be down he would most have likely undertaken the invasion and occupation of the British Isles (Eire included).
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
02/03/2017 at 12:27, STARS: 1
I suppose the unlikelihood of successfully moving tanks and vehicles through the Ardennes had more weight. Nazi Germany respecting Belgium? Really?
Also I think France was more obsessed with how to
prevent
a war with Germany (fortification of borders etc) than how to
successfully fight
a war, if it ever happened. The amount of adult French males killed during WW1 was staggering. Those wounds had not healed yet.
"ceanderson920" (ceanderson9290)
02/03/2017 at 13:48, STARS: 0
Awesome pictures from a very interesting time in world history! After watching every WWII documentary I could find I kinda got burnt out on WWII. Lately I have been listening to Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast about WWI. WWI isn’t as romantic as WWII and it is very hard to find digital media about WWI, but if you are interested in learning a lot about WWI check out the podcast. He has 5 or 6 episodes that are each 3+ hours, I am only half way through the 3rd podcast but fuck its interesting.
"InFierority Complex" (lanciere)
02/03/2017 at 14:06, STARS: 1
The French completely expected the Germans to break the neutrality. The battleplan was to hold the Maginot line while the mobile elements of the army rushed into Belgium in order to bring the fighting away from French borders.
The problem (well, one of them) was that the Germans pretty much knew this was the plan as well.The move the Ardennes is what cut off these forces off in Belgium, not that they were doing all that well anyways out there.
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
02/03/2017 at 15:02, STARS: 1
Granted that Dunkirk could have been much worse for the British side (better not to mention how it actually went for the French units that were doing their best to buy time for the BEF) but... why would you say Germany really had the chance to win the Battle of Britain (meaning the air operations in UK airspace during the summer of 1940)? Care to elaborate?
Incidentally, wonderful pictures – and even better idea to post them here. Thank you.
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/03/2017 at 15:33, STARS: 0
I’ve heard the argument that the Germans had a chance to win the Battle of Britain if they had stuck with their original plan of just attaching the RAF. Instead they started to attack civilian targets in retaliation of the bombing of Berlin. Yes the British did have the advantage of defending home skies and could be rescued if they bailed out and the Germans did suffer heavy loses at times, but once they started to focus on non-military targets it was lost. That enabled the British to regroup and win.
"AuthiCooper1300" (rexrod)
02/03/2017 at 15:55, STARS: 1
It would still have been a very tall order. The Brits always had the opportunity to move shop further north; the Germans still had to cross the Channel just to reach the islands, and the further north they were to engage the RAF, the less fuel they would have left for their mission. In the end the attrition rates in terms of men and materiel were always going to stack the odds against the German side.
But who knows. It was close enough even as it was.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
02/03/2017 at 23:02, STARS: 0
I have to dissagree. even if he had destroyed the BEF, the RAF still had command of the air, and the royal navy command of the sealanes.
There is a great doc by james holland from the BBC, on how the RAF wasn’t as weak as most conceptualize.
also the germans could have never invaded. No boats, units spread all over, and most importantly no horses.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
02/03/2017 at 23:04, STARS: 0
there is a bbc doc by james holland that the RAf wasn’t as weak as most think.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
02/03/2017 at 23:10, STARS: 0
the main problem was you can’t trade one fighter (one pilot and one aircraft engine) for one bomber ( 2 engines and 4 crew) and win a war.
The germans were at a major tactical disadvantage with the channel guzzling most of their fuel as well as perpetually underestimating the strength of the RAF.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
02/03/2017 at 23:19, STARS: 0
France: 4.29%-4.39% (1,697,000-1,737,800 people)
http://brilliantmaps.com/ww1-casualties/
France had never recovered fromww1. The whole point wasn’t for the line to solely stop the german advance but to buy time and to cause as many german casualties as possible, while mobilising troops in the rear.
even when it was attacked from the rear the line still wasn’t easy to destroy.
One issue the french had during the phoney war was troops mobilized too well. For a few weeks in 1939 industrial output collapsed as men rushed to their mobilization points.
"E90M3" (e90m3)
02/04/2017 at 09:11, STARS: 0
I don’t think he’d been able to invade in 1940 even if he was to wipe out the BEF and the RAF. I think the air war would have been a lot closer if he didn’t change tactics. It would have turned into a war of attrition and it’d probably lasted longer than it did. Then again all this is speculation.
I disagree they would have never been able to invade. If they defeated both the BEF and RAF in 1940, you’re right they lacked the means to mount an invasion. Then again the BEF was in no shape to mount an amphibious invasion, that came almost 4 years later. If the Germans were ever going to be able to pull of Sea Lion, it’d happened much later in the war.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
02/04/2017 at 11:13, STARS: 0
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00txmkk
the germns didn’t have the numbers, nor did they have the aircraft production in 1940 to out build the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production