by "AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
Published 01/16/2017 at 08:30
by "AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
Published 01/16/2017 at 08:30
No Tags
STARS: 7
In light of a post regarding an absolutely insane quote for an R63 engine (link below) this seemed like a good idea. I know some of you are interested in owning one of these at some point, or are just curious about them. Anything you want to know I will answer. If I don’t know the answer I will do my best to find it for you. Unfortunately I only take photos of some things I deem extremely interesting, if I feel like it. So you get a bunch of photos of this one engine, but they’re great. Low mileage and low production car, basically brand new. Needed a brand new replacement engine, thus the insane cost. But it was under warranty. $57k would be a complete reman engine, in case you were curious.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
"Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom" (will-alib)
01/16/2017 at 08:37, STARS: 1
What’s wrong with this picture? The maths is off...
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
01/16/2017 at 08:45, STARS: 0
Nothing
"McMike" (mcmike)
01/16/2017 at 08:47, STARS: 0
$95k? That a lot of failures.
"macanamera" (macanamera)
01/16/2017 at 08:47, STARS: 2
1. What’s it out of?
2. Really? New engine is 90k???
3. The hell happened?
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
01/16/2017 at 08:50, STARS: 0
It is. But with the math in the picture, nothing is off... apart from the 8th piston, but that’s accounted for elsewhere.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
01/16/2017 at 08:51, STARS: 4
LS7 swap for 35k
"petebmwm" (petebmwm)
01/16/2017 at 08:57, STARS: 2
seriously, how does this happen?
"EL_ULY" (uly)
01/16/2017 at 09:01, STARS: 8
Day 2 of our new 18 year old lube line tech (friend of a friend of a friend of an employee here).... leaves oil cap off and drain plug loose on a W220 S55. Engine seizes in the middle of the freeway. Car turns off and gets rear ended (totaled).
Day 3, a customer calls that his W222 S63 is spewing oil on his freshly done garage floor, leaking oil into his pond.
Day 4, leaves drain plug loose on another S63. There is a huge oil spill through service all the way to the wash.
Kids laughs it off and says “oops lol”. FIRED! Employee of many years that recommended him mouths off hard against manager not knowing he was behind him, FIRED!
"S65" (granthp)
01/16/2017 at 09:04, STARS: 0
Could you not put a C63 engine in it or a SL63 engine? Is the R63 in a unique state of tune or something??
"404 - User No Longer Available" (toni-cipriani)
01/16/2017 at 09:06, STARS: 0
Are there any major known issues with the W166 ML63 before it became the GLE? Friend has one he bought off after a lease, and one mechanic/dealer told him there are strange noises starting to appear on his, though I’m not sure if it’s just the dealer trying to get him to get a new car.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
01/16/2017 at 09:08, STARS: 3
Best excuse for an LS swap ever.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
01/16/2017 at 09:09, STARS: 2
Why doesn’t Merc just LS swap them? Cheaper, more reliable, can be had with more power with the addition of a blower....
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
01/16/2017 at 09:10, STARS: 5
Financially justified LS swap is best LS swap.
Usually.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
01/16/2017 at 09:10, STARS: 1
Can do two of them for the price of one AMG failure, except the chances of a second failure just got reduced.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
01/16/2017 at 09:14, STARS: 1
Actually I was being generous. You can pick up an LS7 for 10-15k if you’re careful, though it’s usually 20-25 as far as I can remember. So I allowed 10-15k for all the fiddling around to get it working properly.
But then, you only have to do that fiddling once. 35k the first, 25 the second, a third (highly unlikely) engine only takes you to 85k.
"whoarder is tellurium" (whoarder)
01/16/2017 at 09:29, STARS: 2
At least it smells better than a critical mass of 722.9.
How many miles did that M156 have on it? I remember the QEC once received a specimen that failed during the customer test drive.
Ohh boy.
"Trevor Slattery, ACTOR" (anacostiabikecompany)
01/16/2017 at 09:30, STARS: 0
Symptoms of failure?
"Milky" (jordanmielke)
01/16/2017 at 09:31, STARS: 0
Wat r black noodles?
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
01/16/2017 at 09:33, STARS: 1
Are we including the price of a massive blower to take it to like 1500 hp like the youtube videos? I certainly hope so.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
01/16/2017 at 09:39, STARS: 0
I wasn’t. OK, 2 engines, but with change left over. Exact amount TBD.
"McMike" (mcmike)
01/16/2017 at 09:40, STARS: 1
Shit, I meant to reply to AMGTech. The “$” in the title is a typo.
"CB" (jrcb)
01/16/2017 at 09:43, STARS: 0
In your experience, what’s the least failure prone AMG engine?
"PS9" (PS9)
01/16/2017 at 09:44, STARS: 0
So one kid wrecked 3 SAMGs because he didn’t tighten a drain plug and forgot an oil cap??? Three tiiiiiiiimes?!?!?!?!?!
"LOREM IPSUM" (lorem---ipsum)
01/16/2017 at 09:50, STARS: 0
Cummins swap with an ecu reflash would be grrreat for that R63.
You could roll coal through the dealer lot weekly to troll them, and 1000 ft-lbs would really wake that minivan up.
"EL_ULY" (uly)
01/16/2017 at 09:50, STARS: 3
The guy that recommended him said he, “has experience working on cars”. I asked the kid and he said he worked at Advanced Auto Parts for a month. That’s it. He is out of school, broke and needed a job.
"Tazio, Count Fouroff" (tazio0625)
01/16/2017 at 09:53, STARS: 0
Ferr-rry interestink
Help me out, I know what’s supposed to be there but having a tough time finding everything; also trouble naming everything pictured
Scored journals...filings everywhere in sump, youch...eccentric piston rings?...something that looks like a hosed timing chain guide escaping from the head...scraped pulley...whatever the timing chain sprockets rotates around (I’m thinking the crankshaft is lower) looks gnarled, and not in a good way...
If a crate M156 is $56K installed wtf was the collateral that took the total to $95K?
Very cool brain teaser but the thread says “AMA” so — any more hints please?
Thanks for a neat thread too
"brianbrannon" (brianbrannon)
01/16/2017 at 09:54, STARS: 0
Why would broken head bolts cause complete failure? You can just replace the bolts and head gaskets?
"PS9" (PS9)
01/16/2017 at 09:54, STARS: 2
I have 0% professional experience fixing cars, and even I bloody damned well know the drain plug has to be tight and the oil cap must be on the engine before it’s started. What a disaster.
Note to self : Don’t let Advance Auto Parts people touch my car.
"Tazio, Count Fouroff" (tazio0625)
01/16/2017 at 09:58, STARS: 0
btw someone please send a link to Mazdeuce, brighten his day
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:01, STARS: 1
C63 507 Edition
95 all said and done with labor, under warranty
First photo is of the idler sprocket for the timing chain. It’s bearing disintegrated and sent metal through the rest of the engine. Large chunks are pictured in the oil pump pickup, small chunks were going throughout, plus that paste like metallic substance which is pictured coating the oil pan was throughout the whole engine. Gouges and scrapes can be seen on numerous components. Could have rebuilt it, but it was a very low mileage car and there was no certainty we could get all of the debris out and prevent another failure.
It’s probably worth noting that a rebuild would have cost less than $20k without replacing the block.
Also, this is the only failure of its kind I know of on one of these.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:07, STARS: 2
Where was the training and oversight!? Why is new guy working on AMG cars by himself!?
Oh wait, because it costs more money to do it right.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:07, STARS: 0
Had one piston back in already before deciding to take a picture.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:08, STARS: 0
See my reply to macanamera
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:10, STARS: 0
Blasphemy. One failure does not an unreliable engine make. This is the only failure I know of on these with the updated parts from the factory. A rebuild would have been less than $20k, but due to extenuating circumstances and fit the sake of customer satisfaction we installed a brand new engine.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:13, STARS: 1
Not that I’m aware of. Maybe chain rattle on startup, but that’s cheap and easy and not going to cause any problems. It’s just from oil bleeding out of the tensions with the engine off. Transfer case input seals, cheap and easy. Clicking from the front during parking lot maneuvers, R&R hubs and apply geese to their mounting areas.
"boredalways" (boredalway666)
01/16/2017 at 10:14, STARS: 1
This is funny to me because even though I have no experience, I’m smart enough to look up how to handle each incident on my smartphone.
I bet those stupid kids are ranting on Reddit right now instead of iFixit, an Engineered Explained YouTube video, or career advice on how to handle yourself professionally in the workplace.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:14, STARS: 0
3k at time of replacement. 900 at first visit for CEL.
Was that the cracked piston one? From free revving a cold engine to redline?
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:15, STARS: 0
See my reply to macanamera
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:17, STARS: 0
First picture, these are the rest of the bits for the idler sprocket in the middle. It disintegrated.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:18, STARS: 0
This is a C63. I suspect the engines are the same side from a few ancillaries.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:18, STARS: 0
This isn’t that R63. Completely different car. See my reply to macanamera.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:19, STARS: 0
M157 or M113.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:19, STARS: 1
CEL and intermittent rough run
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:22, STARS: 1
Disintegrated timing chain idler sprocket, first photo. Everything else is consequential damage, chain guides are fine.
57 is for a reman engine. 95 for brand new.
There’s a few more details in my reply to macanamera.
"McMike" (mcmike)
01/16/2017 at 10:22, STARS: 0
I thought the car had 95K miles on it and your title had a typo
I thought the new new engine was $57K installed. How can there be almost $40K in labor?
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:23, STARS: 0
Would it really help though since this was covered by warranty?
Plus he will probably end up hating me if he reads my lengthy reply from that thread...
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:25, STARS: 0
Nope!
This isn’t that R63. $57 for a reman engine, $95 for new.
"macanamera" (macanamera)
01/16/2017 at 10:33, STARS: 0
How much is just the motor unit, without labor and stuff?
"V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches" (jbv12)
01/16/2017 at 10:38, STARS: 0
If my engine were to fail catastrophically, what does a whole new engine, like everything brand new, cost ?
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 10:38, STARS: 0
This was a few years ago, but I’m thinking just a hair over 90. But again, that’s brand new, and it came complete with all parts, even manifolds and wiring harness.
"EL_ULY" (uly)
01/16/2017 at 10:45, STARS: 1
This kids was on his phone constantly. Taking pictures of himself in cars and posting them on one of those goofy twittergrambooks
"Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom" (will-alib)
01/16/2017 at 10:49, STARS: 0
Roger that.
"macanamera" (macanamera)
01/16/2017 at 10:51, STARS: 0
That’s amazingly expensive still. Would the M157 cost the same?
"Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom" (will-alib)
01/16/2017 at 10:57, STARS: 4
Apply geese? Jeebus, the Audobon Society folks would jump all over you for that..
"No Prius Needed" (nopriusneeded)
01/16/2017 at 11:07, STARS: 0
This is a bit scary. I was thinking about getting a 2010 C63 now that they are below $30k. Are all M156's plagued by issues like this?
"EL_ULY" (uly)
01/16/2017 at 11:14, STARS: 1
As a family owned dealer, it doesn’t surprise me at all lol
"EL_ULY" (uly)
01/16/2017 at 11:25, STARS: 0
Kid was on his phone taking a million selfies the whole time.
"nermal" (nermal)
01/16/2017 at 11:57, STARS: 0
Does AMG do that thing where one guy builds the engine and puts a plaque with his signature on it?
If so, what happens in this case? Does the original guy get sacked for building a bad engine? Does the person that rebuilt it get to put a new plaque with their signature on it?
Important questions!
"whoarder is tellurium" (whoarder)
01/16/2017 at 12:04, STARS: 1
“Customer states car is now making a honking-like noise when turning wheel.”
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:06, STARS: 0
Yes, they do.
To my knowledge, no one gets fired, especially in a case like this where the issue was a part, not assembly. But they log all of the torque, pattern, sealant info for every engine when it’s built. They will basically do an autopsy to determine the cause of the failure and if it were related to workmanship at either factory or dealer level, and review the aforementioned data if necessary.
I’ve rebuilt some, but I don’t have a plaque. So the original builder plaque remains.
"Gripevo1" (Gripevo1)
01/16/2017 at 12:11, STARS: 0
Wait, what car did this come from? Because 95k is at or above the msrp of some of the cars the m156 came in(e63,clk 63,c63)...so the engine replacement costs more than the car new?
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:11, STARS: 1
They’re great engines. Don’t let this scare you away, especially since this is the only failure of its kind I’m aware of. Look at the valve covers, if they’re black (plastic)you’re safe from all common problems. If the valve covers are white (painted metal) then check service history for head bolts. With the white engines, cams, lifters and cam adjusters can make noise as well, and that’s not cheap, but it isn’t crazy common. I would just get a black engine though (newer, usually 10 and up depending on model and a few other factors.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 0
Lol there’s a bulletin. It’s not grease like you’re thinking. It’s some special stuff and it’s applied to a very small area very thinly. So it will pollute far less than the oil that leaks out of any Audubon society member’s cars.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:18, STARS: 0
C63 507 Edition. This was a brand new complete engine with manifolds and wiring harness. It could have been repaired for less, but this was done to placate the customer and hopefully prevent a buyback. It doesn’t sound like it makes sense, but it was the best option considering the circumstances. Customer left happy and ended up buying a GT-S.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:20, STARS: 0
Off the top of my head, from memory, in the range of $60-70k. That will have to do, I’m not going to bother parts to get an actual price, that will just annoy them.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:25, STARS: 0
My corporate store tries to do it too, but we (techs) don’t let them. Luckily we have quite a bit of power because there are zero qualified techs within hundreds of miles who aren’t already working for Benz dealers. 99.9% of the applicants we get for tech openings are completely worthless. Managers know this and treat us well, and listen to us when it comes to certain things.
"V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches" (jbv12)
01/16/2017 at 12:25, STARS: 0
Lol so only like 4 times the value of my car !
"Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom" (will-alib)
01/16/2017 at 12:26, STARS: 1
“Goose located under hood after brief search.”
"Tazio, Count Fouroff" (tazio0625)
01/16/2017 at 12:32, STARS: 1
Thanks again for the cool (also informative) thread and for writing detailed description of the issue
Heck if I know — might’ve been just another dumb idea, not my first! It was meant as sort of a tongue in cheek suggestion; like, “there’s this...at least your (Mazdeuce’s) engine didn’t end up having to be 100% rebuilt or replaced”
Cheers,
Taz
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:35, STARS: 0
Very.
The M157 is many tens of thousands cheaper. Probably in large part because it’s based off of an existing Mercedes engine, whereas the M156 was a one off AMG only engine. If you’re worried about your CLS (do you still have it? Thought you traded it in on the F), don’t. The 157 has already proven to be extremely reliable. I honestly don’t know of any catastrophic failures, or common major problems on them.
"Gripevo1" (Gripevo1)
01/16/2017 at 12:36, STARS: 0
Gotcha.
I actually considered an early c63 instead of my mustang, but im glad I didn’t in retrospect. One of my buddies has one that has been dead reliable, but the service bills can obviously be immense out of warranty.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:48, STARS: 1
Lol yeah I know how you meant it, I was trying to be sarcastic, or something, I don’t know. That doesn’t always come across well in text
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 12:51, STARS: 0
They can. But if you get into one knowing the problem areas and prepare for them, then no big deal. Or find one that’s had the problem areas corrected and you’re golden, like a trump shower. They don’t really have any other common issues, aside from some engine things.
"EL_ULY" (uly)
01/16/2017 at 12:57, STARS: 0
literally the opposite here lol.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 13:04, STARS: 0
One of my guys lived in Texas for a few years. He said the same. Apparently Cali is that way too. We’re really lucky up here where I am.
"Tazio, Count Fouroff" (tazio0625)
01/16/2017 at 13:10, STARS: 1
Lol
“That doesn’t always come across well in text”
So true!
Kind regards,
Taz
"Cherry_man1" (Cherry_man1)
01/16/2017 at 13:35, STARS: 0
What should I look for in an E63 AMG ‘08 if I was looking at one with 80k miles and the service records show an intake manifold gasket replacement and other big ticket things it appears. Any quirks I need to look for?
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 13:50, STARS: 1
Do you have the VIN?
Head bolts/gaskets, ticking from the engine (this would be any combination of cams, lifters, and cam adjusters), faults in the engine computer (they won’t necessarily illuminate the CEL) particularly related to cam timing (adjusters, or fuel trim which could indicate the intake gasket didn’t fix that problem).
Otherwise they’re pretty solid. Check brakes and tires because neither is cheap to replace and people often just do pads to avoid the cost of rotors even though they’re worn below minimum.
Then course usual items you would check on any car, bushings and ball joints and what not.
"Cherry_man1" (Cherry_man1)
01/16/2017 at 14:31, STARS: 0
WDBUF77X98B233885
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 15:05, STARS: 1
I can’t pull terribly detailed history but what I see doesn’t raise any red flags. Hasn’t been to a dealer since March 2015 at 71k miles. Should probably be due for B service, brake fluid, air filters and trans service at 80k, unless they’ve been done outside of a dealer.
Looks like it was rebuilt at 63k miles. Pistons, rods, lifters, cam adjusters, head gaskets and bolts. If I had to guess I would say it either hydrolocked or had high oil consumption. But unless it runs poorly or makes weird ticking noises I wouldn’t worry about it. Unqualified techs don’t typically get to do these types of jobs.
Otherwise looks pretty good. I would still pay for a pre purchase inspection just to be safe.
"macanamera" (macanamera)
01/16/2017 at 15:16, STARS: 0
Oh no I got rid of the CLS, I was just wondering.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 15:19, STARS: 0
That’s what I thought. Still liking the F-type?
"macanamera" (macanamera)
01/16/2017 at 16:04, STARS: 0
Man, it’s impossible not to
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 0
I’ve only driven the R, in comparison to our GT-S, so it was underwhelming. But I bet the stick 6 is plenty of fun.
"No Prius Needed" (nopriusneeded)
01/16/2017 at 18:17, STARS: 0
I’ll keep that in mind. Are there any other common issues with C63s that you know of?
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/16/2017 at 18:31, STARS: 1
Honestly they’re pretty solid cars. The engine is the weakest link as far as reliability goes. ‘12 and newer get the updated interior, which is a big upgrade. Prior to that there may be peeling buttons. Aaaaand that’s about it. Simple car really.
"nermal" (nermal)
01/16/2017 at 21:12, STARS: 1
Interesting. Thanks!
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
01/17/2017 at 03:36, STARS: 0
I do feel as though in 30 years cars will be completely disposible, since they will become so complicated that a few years will cause them to become useless. Much like a smartphone. Look at the DB11 - motorized speakers that rise from the dash, motorized centre console lid, soft-close hood - not to mention engine magic like these Mercs. Why? These things trickle down to Hyundais, break within a couple of decades and render the cars useless.
I’m aware that people have probably been saying this for decades, probably said the same thing about fuel injection. But hey.
Just quietly, my MR2 has a few creature comforts, but it’s a long way away from motorized centre console. Things don’t break, they’re easy to fix when they do, and if the engine explodes tomorrow I’ll put a better one in it for <5k.
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/17/2017 at 06:22, STARS: 0
Nah. I think it will go the other way, for environmental reasons. Doesn’t mean they won’t be expensive to fix though.
Motorized speakers and center console covers have been around for years already, maybe a decade even on some cars. The ‘08 C-class was available with a motorized cover for the radio screen on higher trim packages. I’ve never had to replace one, or a motorized speaker for that matter.
We’ve had soft close everything except hoods for twenty years. It’s not that complicated, at all. Nor is it that problematic. Older cars the pneumatic pump would fail. Newer cars are electric, sometimes the motors fail. It’s no more complicated that replacing a door latch. And often the electric components aren’t that expensive. The pumps were but that’s because it was also a valve block and control unit. Typically the control unit would corrode from getting water in it due either a leak (convertibles), windows left open, or someone spilling something.
Mercedes at least is very good at building serviceability into their cars. We rebuild components, engines and transmissions included, just as often as we replace them. Tesla commonly replaces individual cells in it’s battery packs. Even the headlights on the new E-class are fully rebuildable, down to every bracket, bezel, and lens.
I know other manufacturers aren’t so good about this, but I think (hope) they might get better. I think the main reason they aren’t better currently is because they know they don’t attract the highest quality of technicians like Mercedes, BMW, and other high end companies (which also tend to build in serviceability). But as time marches on technicians need to be more savvy just for basic repairs and diagnosis. The bar is constantly rising, and when it reaches a certain point I think the lower tier manufacturers will feel more comfortable I’m letting their techs rebuild components rather than just replace. But that’s probably at least a decade away from what I’ve seen of the skill level of techs that come from those lower level brands.
"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12)
01/17/2017 at 06:52, STARS: 0
That is comforting. But having someone rebuild a component is expensive, easy though it may be. I’d argue that in 10 or 20 years, Mercedes won’t want to touch them, warranties will be over, they’ll be in indie mechanic shops who will quote $3k for a rebuild (if lucky) or replacement, it will go unfixed and the car will move a step closer to the crusher.
I’d also predict that once Hyundai start emulating the technology, they’ll be doing it to bottom dollar. It’s cheaper to make something sealed than to make it replaceable and train staff in replacing them. You say the bar is rising - that’s great if it’s true. I’d say Hyundai will be Hyundai. Unfortunately, if their bar rises too much, someone will come in and start building even cheaper cars under them -
they
won’t have the fancy learned techs. First the Japanese were the budget car builders, then the Koreans...next up will be China.
Example: When I got my third 300ZX (20 years old at the time) the power antenna was broken and so was the cruise control. One of the power windows broke while I had it. Maybe this wouldn’t have happened on a 70s Merc that introduced the technology, but it trickles down to cheaper cars with lesser budgets. I fixed these things, but the more things like this cars have and the cheaper they’re built, the more things can break and the less people care about fixing them.
Just my opinion :)
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/17/2017 at 10:05, STARS: 0
You could be right. Maybe we’ll both be wrong and it will happen another way entirely.
Components are made to be rebuildable precisely because it costs less than replacing. Depending on the component of course. Let’s say an engine rebuild pays a tech 30 hours at $150/hour shop rate, that’s $4500 in labor. Most new engines from a dealer cost double that, at least. Unless we’re talking used parts. Manufacturers only care about what they need to pay dealers under warranty. And warranty rate is typically less than standard shop rate.
If an indie quotes unnecessary work for too much money then shame on them and the customer for not doing their research. I know it will happen, it’s unavoidable. But this is nothing new. And it’s part of why its been so important to go to a qualified and reputable shop.
When parts are made cheaper by cheaper companies those parts have core charges. Those cores get turned in. Those cores go to an aftermarket company who rebuilds and sells them as reman parts. They don’t necessarily go straight to the scrap yard.
Cars and their parts are always going to break regardless of how expensive or cheap their parts are made. Ultimately, when or whether a car goes to scrap, depends on the owner. If people buy cars they can afford to maintain fewer cars get thrown away.
Then again, you have a car that’s worth owning (or feels like it’s worth owning) you might be more inclined to feed it regardless of cost. For example; there are customers who will drop many thousands of dollars to fix every little thing on their late 90's base model ML’s because “we just love it so much”. Even at half the cost to fix, no one on their right mind would do this for any Hyundai. Or when someone thinks about scrapping a Mercedes, there will often be someone who would rather buy and fix it. I don’t know of anyone (aside from maybe wobbles) who would save a Hyundai from getting thrown away. Of course it isn’t always worth it, but there is almost always someone willing. Actually, there is currently an old ML in my shop that someone bought from a scrap yard in an attempt to bring it back to life (I’ve seen this done with Range Rovers and BMW’s too). This was a stupid decision regarding this particular vehicle, but it proves my point that a vehicle worthwhile from the start is always worth saving to somebody. Whereas a Hyundai is an appliance and no one cares.
"fc63" (fc63)
01/03/2018 at 20:29, STARS: 0
Just been reading your blog/posts (we have AMG and Snowboarding in common!) But right now I’m looking for some advice. I recently picked up a 2012 C63 with 60,000kms on it. Full service history at MB.
Since owning it I’ve noticed a ticking coming from the engine while warm. My guess is cams/lifters but maybe I’ve just been reading too much. I’ve uploaded a video here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4g91j94fzqbstr/M156%20Ticking.MOV?dl=0 ticking is obvious from about 2 seconds onwards.
MB say this is normal. Previous owner said it’s done this from new and she complained to MB a couple of times about it. I don’t notice any cold start noise/rattle myself.
I took it to a workshop I was recommend to. They listened to a cold start and say they hear a rattle from the drivers side of the engine (right hand drive vehicle). They pulled cam cover/rocker cover off and pointed out the timing chain is very loose, video here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ioi3tolwvu3gy88/M156%20Loose%20Timing%20Chain.MOV?dl=0
Is this timing chain normal? Is it serious? I’m surprised if a timing chain has stretched at 60,000kms...
They have suggested the timing chain may be stretched (or could be guides/tensioner) either way engine out job to replace/fix this.
The cams showing some wear (they said they would need advice from their machinist if they would need replacing as 50/50 as first layer of material has been worn through on some. Couldn’t see the lifters/buckets as they didn’t take cams out. Couple of photos here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pm3zjjwl6pnh80i/IMG_2143.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu49zscijokzfgs/IMG_2141.JPG?dl=0
Any advice/tips would be greatly appreciated :)
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/04/2018 at 02:44, STARS: 0
Your cams definitely have some wear. I’d suggest replacing the set, and all lifters. Sorry. Could be what’s causing your noise, but it’s hard to tell without being there. Injectors can be pretty noisy too so it might just be those. But you can probably wait a little while until it gets worse if you need to save up.
As for the chain, depending on where the crankshaft was positioned, that could be normal. The only M156 I’ve ever seen with a chain related issue is the one I wrote about in this post. If it were stretched that far, you would have cam timing or cam adjustment faults. You could have the shop do ”teach in of camshaft positions” in the ME. If that were to fail, then maybe you do have a chain issue, but you can get false negatives, so one pass is good, even if it takes a few tries. Also, if that were stretch, it would be jumping teeth I think.
"fc63" (fc63)
01/04/2018 at 05:16, STARS: 0
Hey, thank you for taking the time to reply.
I’d actually prefer if it was the cams/lifters as at least that’s not as major job as the timing chain (as far as I understand it?)
I don’t think it’s injector noise (but I’m not an expert). I’ve listened to other C63 M156 engines and can hear the injectors firing fast in the background but they don’t have the ticking noise I do. Is there a test to see if it is injector noise?
I do not have any CEL lights or fault codes logged - that I know (I bought a carly adapter to be able to check that myself plus had workshop check it).
Right now I’m too scared to drive the car as I’ve been advised the loose timing chain is bad enough to not drive the car as it may jump a tooth and risk of bending valves/really destroying the engine!
If it is just Cams/Lifters then i dont mind driving the car at least until I sort out replacements (I would put the SLS M159 Buckets in - would you agree to do this?)
I’d love some more advice if you can give any, even if you want more photos/videos. Happy to reach out offline if that would help? (I’d bring the car to you if I could but there is a little thing called the pacific ocean between, as I’m from Australia :) )
I really don’t know where to go from here? Do I drive the car? Would the best thing be to run the test you recommened (which I don’t understand so will need to find out more so I don’t sound like a complete moron!) ”teach in of camshaft positions” in the ME
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/04/2018 at 10:40, STARS: 0
Of course! Anytime.
You can run the engine with the air filter housings removed and then use a stethoscope to see if it’s the injectors making the noise.
The engine above obviously had the cams way way way out of time but never been any valves. At one point to of the cams were even 180 degrees out. I wouldn’t worry too much about jumping a youth or two and bending valves. Do you know if that shop turned the engine over by hand while they were looking at the chain? If it never tightened through two full crankshaft revolutions then yeah you might have a problem. But there is always a point in a revolution where the chain shows some slop, especially with the engine off. Remember, the chain tensioner is pressurized with engine oil when running but only uses a spring when not running.
IIRC you can only get M159 lifters now.
If you mount skis to the front wheels and put paddle tires on the back you can totally cross the Pacific! Just keep the throttle pinned!
ME = Motor Electronics = engine computer
Teach in of camshaft positions just has the ME actuate the cam adjusters through their full range of adjustment, ensures timing is set up properly, and finds a baseline. If there’s an issue with the chain, this test will find it.
"fc63" (fc63)
01/04/2018 at 15:45, STARS: 0
Once again, thank you!
I asked the question about turning over the engine by hand and the answer was yes they did and it did get tight and loose. If it got tight at some point that sounds to me like the timing chain maybe ok?
I have a friend who has access to the MB scan tool that can run that Teach in of camshaft positions for me - Found the option on this video:
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
I think I’ll order the 4 x cams and 32 lifters and get them replaced first since they need replacing anyway. Do you know what other parts I need to do this replacement? (I know there are 2 special cam locking tools I need, can I just order from ebay or are those versions no good?)
PS - Crossing the pacific with skis and paddle tires sounds totally feasable, if it wasn’t for the awful fuel economy on the 63 :P
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/04/2018 at 17:44, STARS: 0
Pretty sure your chain is fine. I’m not worried about it, you shouldn’t be either.
I would get new bolts for the cam bearing caps, new bolts for cam adjusters, new friction washers (they go between the cams and cam adjusters), new valve cover gaskets, new cylinder head front cover gaskets. And, if by chance you still have old style head bolts, replace those too, see figure 1. Old style bolt is internal torx, new style is external torx.
The head bolts can be replaced one at a time with the cams out without removing anything beyond the heads. After replacing the cams, I would run the engine for a couple hundred miles then do an oil change.
Here are the directions told you will need, but keep in mind you will need two of the compressing tool:
No idea about the eBay versions of the tools, I’ve only used factory. It’s an expensive engine, is this really where you want to save a few dollars with the risk of massive headaches later on?
Keep in mind cam teach in will need to be done after cam replacement, but you are of course welcome to do it before as well as a diagnostic step if that makes you feel better about the chain.
This is a pretty easy job, but can still get messed up pretty easily. Make sure you trust whoever does it. Lifters should soak beforehand, assembly lube should be used on the cams, parts need to be clean, and most importantly bolt loosening and tightening sequences and torque specs need to be strictly followed. It’s also very easy to misroute cam solenoid wiring. But on the plus side, the chain doesn’t get touched at all to do this job!
"fc63" (fc63)
01/04/2018 at 18:20, STARS: 0
Thanks,
Mine is a 2012 with the new headbolts so shouldn’t need to touch them.
Someone (who is not as knowledgeable as you) suggested that while the chain may not be stretched, the ticking noise could be from the sprocket being worn and that it risks jumping a tooth and that will result in bent valves. In the off chance this is the case (worn sprocket) then would the camshaft teach in process be of any use?
Is there any easy way to test/check if it is a worn sprocket?
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/04/2018 at 19:13, STARS: 0
Lol which sprocket? An idler? No dice. Wouldn’t matter if that jumped. Can’t jump crank because there’s a dowel on the timing cover that prevents it (unless this were to break but then chain jump would be the least of your worries). Also, if (BIG IF) the sprocket were worn, I doubt it would click. The one in my post here made absolutely no abnormal noises and as you can see it was so fucked parts of it were missing. If a worn sprocket were to make a noise I would expect it to be a groaning/whining/whirring-worn-bearing noise.
As for the one above, I still haven’t heard of another doing this, not with certainty at least, there were rumors of another at the time but I could never get confirmation on it.
Unless your person is talking about the cam adjusters, those can make noise. They can be checked for play with the valve cover off though; just use a wrench to grab the boss for the cam holding tool and rotate the cam back and forth. If it moves independently of the adjuster, then the adjuster should be replaced.
Oh, and as for your AMGphibious Pacific adventure, all you need is an extra fuel cell in the trunk and lots of Jerry cans in the back seat!
"AMGtech - now with more recalls!" (amgtech)
01/04/2018 at 19:15, STARS: 0
Also, just double check the bolts while you’re in there. Just to be safe. You should be fine, but it only takes a quick glance to verify.
