by "dieseldub" (dieseldub)
Published 01/06/2017 at 17:12
by "dieseldub" (dieseldub)
Published 01/06/2017 at 17:12
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STARS: 3
Reuters announced today that U.S. regulators have in fact approved an emissions fix for Gen 3 “EA288" family 2.0L TDI diesel engines, these engines were only found in 2015 model year Golf, Beetle, Jetta and Passats and represent about 58,000 of the over 400,000 affected cars. You will also note that the article states once a fix has been applied to affected cars, Volkswagen will in fact be allowed to resell them.
More pertinent information for affected owners can be found in this court document.
The document outlines that the fix for the gen 3 cars will be a two step process, first step will be a software update, the second stage, to happen in 2018 sometime most likely, will also have a hardware retrofit.
They warn that the two things the owners of the vehicles may notice is a change in the tone/sound of the engine along with an increase in Adblue/Diesel Exhaust Fluid usage ranging anywhere from 1% to 14%, depending on driving conditions.
The document does stress that there should NOT be any changes to drivability, performance, durability or efficiency with the now approved fix.
There are other minor changes that may be noticeable outlined in the document, but the most important for most owners will be the bottom line: no difference in fuel consumption or performance, but you will almost certainly have to top off the adblue tank more frequently.
The second stage of the fix may also include VW replacing the entire “exhaust purification module” as they call it in their self-study program for dealer technicians. On the EA288 family/Gen 3 TDIs, the diesel oxidizing catalyst, the diesel particulate filter along with the selective catalytic reduction catalyst and the adblue injector are all part of the same assembly that bolts to the back of the engine (VW’s attempt to make the engine relatively modular and ease certain aspects of servicing/replacing the components). Manual transmission cars with more than 70,000 miles and automatics with more than 40,000 miles will get that entire module replaced as a matter of course to help ensure the components will make it the full extended warranty period post-fix.
Speaking of, the document also outlines what the extended warranty period will look like:
The warranty period for the “Extended Emissions Warranty” limited warranty extension shall be the greater of:
- 11 years or 162,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the vehicle’s original in-service date; OR
- 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of Phase 1 of the emissions modification. At the time of the subsequent Phase 2 modification, the extended warranty will be honored for 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of the completion of Phase 2.
The document also goes on to list additional components which are to be covered under warranty, some of which had been declined as items that would be covered under an emissions warranty prior to the scandal:
- The entire exhaust after treatment system, including the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, the Diesel Particulate Filter, the Selective Catalytic Reduction converter, the dosing injector and other Diesel Exhaust Fluid system components, the exhaust flap, and all sensors and actuators
- The entire fuel system, including fuel pumps, high pressure fuel rail, fuel injectors, vibration damper, pressure control valve and all sensors and actuators
- The EGR system, including EGR valves, EGR cooler, EGR filter, EGR temperature sensor, all related hoses and pipes, and all sensors and actuators
- The turbocharger, including the turbocharger damper
-The On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) system, including SCR DEF quality sensor, and any malfunctions detected by the OBD systems other than those related to the transmission.
The extended warranties in particular are big wins for consumers. Many of these items, in particular the variable geometry turbo and any exhaust aftertreatment components are very expensive and labor-intensive to replace, this should help alleviate concerns over cost of ownership for those who already own the vehicles.
Now, here’s to hoping we get news of approval for the gen 1 and 2 engines along with the V6s soon. So far so good for owners of these cars, though.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
01/06/2017 at 17:15, STARS: 1
Thats a totally acceptable hit if its true. Not bad.
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
01/06/2017 at 17:15, STARS: 1
Here’s a dumb question: If they had engine set up to run compliant when it knew it was being tested, why couldn’t they just modify the engines to run that way all the time and take the performance loss?
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
01/06/2017 at 17:20, STARS: 1
I suspect it wouldn’t last the required emissions equipment warrantee as VW was already having trouble with that.
"dieseldub" (dieseldub)
01/06/2017 at 17:21, STARS: 3
Well, first off, there is no performance loss with this fix.
I’m not an engineer who designed these systems, but I suspect two things were going on to motivate them to engineer the 3rd gen motors with the cheat. The 3rd gen engines really should not have had an issue meeting regs with the equipment it has.
The only thing I can assume why they decided to cheat with the gen 3 is that they first were able to get away with it on the gen 1 motors. Secondly, it’s possible the operating conditions to make these genuinely clean under every day use might cause longevity issues with certain components of the car, what comes to mind most is the turbo and the diesel particulate filter.
Lastly, they wanted to make sure owners did not have to re-fill the diesel exhaust fluid tank in between their scheduled 10,000 mile maintenance intervals, so they turned down the adblue/DEF dosing rate to the point where under all conditions it could go at least 10,000 miles before needing a top-off. More done for consideration of cars still under warranty and being serviced at the dealers than anything.
"Jcarr" (jcarr)
01/06/2017 at 17:23, STARS: 3
Makes sense. Kind of like how NASCAR (or other racing) teams tweak their setup to get the fastest qualifying time, but then back it down so it doesn’t blow up over the course of 500 miles.
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
01/06/2017 at 17:27, STARS: 0
So how are they going to profit off this? These aren’t cheap fixes but I don’t see someone dropping enough money on a used vw to make the work worth doing.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
01/06/2017 at 17:32, STARS: 0
i wonder if that means that now vw can just fix this car for the owner, and not HAVE to buy it back now............. dum.dum......DUM................
"Saracen" (manualdoucheelitist)
01/06/2017 at 17:36, STARS: 0
In 27,000 miles I’ve had to refill the AdBlue tank twice. But I’m pretty sure the dealership isn’t refilling it when I bring it in for service.
"Saracen" (manualdoucheelitist)
01/06/2017 at 17:36, STARS: 3
It’s not relevant, the options were always an eventual fix + money, or buyback.
"Saracen" (manualdoucheelitist)
01/06/2017 at 17:37, STARS: 1
That’s awesome!
The owner of my TDI will have a sweet warranty when VW repairs it after I turn it in next week.
"facw" (facw)
01/06/2017 at 17:38, STARS: 0
In theory yes, but the settlement terms dictate no loss of performance or efficiency.
That is also why this fix is only for cars that already have a DEF system. It would be very surprising if VW will really fix any older models that would need to have such a system retrofitted in to meet those goals. Best guess is those buybacks get crushed, and they end up amending the settlement to deal with those owners that wanted to keep their cars.
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
01/06/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 0
yes, but what i mean is......... that since VW had declined to buy his back, might they be ABLE to stick him with the car, provided VW “fixes” the emissions?....... but yeah, probably not relevant........
"Frank Grimes" (FrankGrimes)
01/06/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 0
So should I start saving for a diesel Bug? I kinda want one.
"Saracen" (manualdoucheelitist)
01/06/2017 at 17:49, STARS: 1
In its current condition, they won’t buy it, and he can choose to opt for the buyback. But if he restores it back to its original condition, they’ll likely be obliged to take it.
"dieseldub" (dieseldub)
01/06/2017 at 17:51, STARS: 1
When it’s a court settlement, you aren’t gonna do much profitting.
The best cost-recoup they’re likely to get is the ability to resell cars they have bought back—but they will be at large losses.
The rumor within the dealer world has been that cars that are bought back, once a fix is approved, they will hold an internal auction for dealers to bid on cars to resell. So, the nicer condition, lower mile cars likely to go first, and for cheap. Then before the cars can be sold, dealers will have to apply the approved fix to them, but the bonus for dealers is that they get to bill VW for the parts and labor to do so.
Bear in mind that VW does have a lot to make up for to its dealers as well, they are all independent businesses. They have in fact suffered a lot in terms of sales as well as service, with many diesel owners deciding to put off many services if they’re only having the car bought back anyway, so service departments have definitely felt the effects of the scandal pretty hard as well.
There is no profit in any of the moves here, but by being able to resell the nicer cars to some dealers, they can recoup a very small amount. The net is still a very large loss, however.
Do expect that cars that have had the fix applied will likely go on sale for very, very cheap. So, if you’ve ever considered buying one, you may be able to get a “brand new” 2015 with next to no miles on it for very cheap. Will be interesting to see develop.
Now we wait for approved fixes for Gen 1 and 2 cars...
"dieseldub" (dieseldub)
01/06/2017 at 17:53, STARS: 0
Yes, totally. Once the fix starts being applied to 2015 cars, you may very well be able to pick up a “leftover” 2015 that has never been purchased, has an insignificant amount of miles on the clock, had the fix applied to it and you may be able to pick it up at a deep, deep discount compared to what it would have retailed for pre-scandal.
"dieseldub" (dieseldub)
01/06/2017 at 17:55, STARS: 1
Funny. I see what you’re trying to get at, but to be an overly literal, humorless twit, Joe Mayer’s car is a Gen 1 which does not yet have an approved fix :)
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
01/06/2017 at 17:55, STARS: 0
that ought to be a fun mess to watch play out........
"Frank Grimes" (FrankGrimes)
01/06/2017 at 18:07, STARS: 1
this was my logic as well. I think I might start looking at paint colors now!
"Die-Trying" (die-trying)
01/06/2017 at 18:08, STARS: 0
yeah, i just went back and did some research.......... youre right. gen 1....... i somehow thought i had read it was a gen 3 engine.
glad i have you guys here to keep me sharp......
"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii)
01/06/2017 at 18:19, STARS: 0
That makes a bit of sense. If I understood correctly the dealer will be paying internal auction + their shop’s labor and hoping they can sell it for more. I’d hope that VW would be paying for the parts.
Don’t think there’ll be too much demand, but could be interesting for 8-9k
"dieseldub" (dieseldub)
01/06/2017 at 19:44, STARS: 0
That’s a big fail on their part. They SHOULD be re-filling it with every 10k service.
Some dealers may just be lazy and ill-informed or their technicians are. The Golf/Jetta and Beetle did not need Adblue through into 2014. 2015 was the first model year they ALL required it, so maybe that’s where the problem is. The geniuses aren’t all that informed that it’s required now.
Previously, only the V6s in the Touareg and the Gen 2 motor found in the 2012-14 Passats required it.
I left the dealer world before the 2015s started needing their 10k service, so not sure how my dealer would have handled it. But in all, they trained the parts staff reasonably well where I worked and would have service packages already pre-assembled and ready to go before the car got pulled into a technicians’ bay and they more often than not got it right.
Not all dealers operate the same, of course...