by "Matsayz" (matsayz)
Published 01/06/2017 at 10:05
by "Matsayz" (matsayz)
Published 01/06/2017 at 10:05
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STARS: 1
How can a 2015 WRX be $23,899 with 60k on the clock? I mean look at those prices! A new one is like $25k right? I know they sell like hotcakes but what the hell. I bought one back in 2012 new because of the same thing happening with prices. How can this still be the case?
"Jarrett - [BRZ Boi]" (jarrettw)
01/06/2017 at 10:09, STARS: 0
A 2015 with 60k miles is pretty impressive.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
01/06/2017 at 10:10, STARS: 2
Subies are solid. Carmax is overpriced. Those are your two answers.
"Wallaby" (cu-wallaby)
01/06/2017 at 10:10, STARS: 0
Top one is a limited, middle one is a base. They also realistically start at about 27k, I got my 16' limited for 29 with a bit of bargaining. I’d say those prices are about right.
"jimz" (jimz)
01/06/2017 at 10:13, STARS: 0
because THEY KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE.
the other thing I find notable is that if I go by Autotrader listing prices, my 2011 Ranger has only lost about $2,000 in value in the 60,000 miles I’ve put on it since I bought it.
"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
01/06/2017 at 10:14, STARS: 4
Because the used Subaru tax is insane, and people are dumb enough to pay it.
If you’re buying a WRX north of $20k, you’re crazy not to buy a brand new one.
"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
01/06/2017 at 10:16, STARS: 0
There’s more to it than that though. People for some reason think that a used WRX with 60k miles is worth paying just $2-3k less than a brand new one. That’s insane! I paid $4k less than new for a used ‘13 FR-S with 4,100 miles on the clock. That is a valuation that actually makes sense. The Subaru tax does not.
"Matthew Phillips" (flatsidewaysfl)
01/06/2017 at 10:20, STARS: 1
Unless you live in a broke area and you just trade for a “better” vehicle...
95 Legacy Outback —> 87 Cherokee Pioneer
not better, more fun
"camarov6rs" (mren2011)
01/06/2017 at 10:21, STARS: 0
Go look at current model year WRX and STI’s. You’ll flip when you see MSRP or more for a vehicle with 5,000 or more miles.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
01/06/2017 at 10:26, STARS: 1
Oh, I agree that it’s absurd. The 86 also has kind of stupid depreciation in the other direction.
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
01/06/2017 at 10:26, STARS: 1
Used Subaru prices have been crazy for a while, as you mentioned. My SIL paid over 8,000 for her 02 Forester with 83,000 miles, three years ago. Of coarse now it’s rusting and worth half of that.
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
01/06/2017 at 10:27, STARS: 0
im not an economist, but i belive its fairly simple supply and demand laws. demand for wrx’s is much higher than frs’s simply because of their increased utility. more customers need real rear seats than can get away with whatever is in back of an frs. and that will drive the price up.
"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
01/06/2017 at 10:28, STARS: 0
It happens with a lot of sports cars, especially when a new generation or refresh comes out. I have a feeling it’ll go back up a little and likely steady out around the $15-16k range for a decent example with reasonable miles, as opposed to like $13k. We’ll see though.
"bwp240" (bwp240)
01/06/2017 at 10:28, STARS: 1
Because Carmax...
"fourvalleys" (fourvalleys)
01/06/2017 at 10:28, STARS: 0
Eh, I mean that’s about 25k per year. It’s not that crazy.
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
01/06/2017 at 10:30, STARS: 0
all (most?) of these bigger wholesale-retail 2nd hand dealers use an algorithm to price their inventory. and while there tend to be some consistencies (has the car had paintwork, is it orange vs black, awd vs fwd) it has nothing to do with kelly or nada or whatever.
"SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie" (sidewaysondirt)
01/06/2017 at 10:31, STARS: 1
I’m hoping it continues on the path it’s on now. Kind of want to buy another one, but for cheap so I won’t feel bad about modding the piss out of it.
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
01/06/2017 at 10:35, STARS: 0
they’ve got an algorithm that they use. its based on real world economics data.
the data is based on simply supply and demand. more customers want subarus than... toyotas. or whatever.
also, i’m guessing youre aiming low on the new wrx with equivalent equipment.
"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
01/06/2017 at 10:35, STARS: 0
Right, but that’s a more accurate metric for new car production/sales. Which explains why in the last two years 3 to over 4 times as many WRXs and STIs were sold in the U.S. versus the FR-S.
It still stands that WRXs sell for unreasonable high values in the used market, and that is the fault of the buyers. A product is only worth what people are willing to pay, and I honestly don’t think it has to do with a lack of supply. Used WRXs are plentiful from everything I’ve seen. But to pay $23k for a car with 60k miles, when a brand new, and arguably better version, of the same car is $25-26k is insane.
I think it may have to do with many buyers of used WRXs being younger folks maxing out their budget on what they can buy, and that extra $2-3k on their 60+ month loan for a new car would be stretching it too far. But they really want that WRX, because bruh, so they’ll spend their max limit on the ridiculous asking price of the fairly used model. Granted, I’m making a lot of generalizations here, that are based more on my observations than any hard quantifiable data.
Point being, used WRX pricing is ridiculous.
"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
01/06/2017 at 10:38, STARS: 0
Lol yeah, I’ve thought that too. Would be great for the Spec 86 series when decent examples start to go for sub-$10k regularly.
I’ll either sell mine and go with something completely different, or hang onto it and eventually make it full racecar when it’s paid off. Only time will tell...
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
01/06/2017 at 10:39, STARS: 0
Yeah a base 2017 is 27 and a Limited starts at 30. But if I’d bet right now you could get a good deal on a left over 16".
"Rico" (ricorich)
01/06/2017 at 10:40, STARS: 2
It comes out to around 100 miles a day, that is kind of a lot for a car like that. It’s not a taxi!
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
01/06/2017 at 10:50, STARS: 1
i don’t agree that the supply/demand holds more for new vs used.
also, “unreasonable high values” i think you mean “prices.” value is something different. and what youre pointing out is that the wrx’s are selling at abnormally LOW depreciation rates. but that is only a comparison as to what you are used to with other cars. (this is where value comes in)
now, the market, for whatever reason (because they appreciate the AWD, because they don’t want an SUV, because they want to be a rally star, because they want to be like everyone else on the softball team) VALUES the subarus. this value can be rational or irrational, but it means these customers will pay a premium over the toyotas nissans kias etc.
you are absolutely right that a car is worth only what people are willing to pay. and trust me, car max knows way better than you what people are willing to pay for a 2 year old subie with 60k miles.
people are willing to pay a 50% PREMIUM for a 30 year old 911 over a brand new one. go figure.
wrx pricing isn’t ridiculous. the sellers are just trying to run a business. what may be ridiculous is the irrational value buyers are willing to place on a used subaru.
"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
01/06/2017 at 10:55, STARS: 0
Sorry, I did mixup some terms, but yeah you did get what I was getting at.
And yes, the buyers’ willingness to value the vehicles that high is what I was getting at being ridiculous.
"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678)
01/06/2017 at 10:56, STARS: 0
I am very happy this is a thing. Soon enough a sub-$10k, clean title, low mileage, FRS will be mine!
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
01/06/2017 at 11:02, STARS: 2
wait till you find a nice girl, want to get married and start looking at diamonds.
O_O
then come back here and talk about ridiculous values.
"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
01/06/2017 at 11:04, STARS: 0
Went through all of that about 5 months ago. haha
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
01/06/2017 at 11:09, STARS: 0
With carmax alot has to do with how much they pay for the car too. When I bought my Mazda there, there were other Mazda’s but mine was 3-5k less because it had a manual transmission.
"Eric @ opposite-lock.com" (theyrerolling)
01/06/2017 at 11:10, STARS: 0
I have noticed that these prices are completely disconnected from any listed resale values. What is different about their methodologies that makes them so different?
One of my cars has a blue book of like $2-3k, but I haven’t seen any in similar condition listed for less than $6k and those have 5x as many miles.
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
01/06/2017 at 11:23, STARS: 0
so i have a little bit of insider information. nada and kelly are national averages based on 5-6 variables. color, mileage, basic equipment and published once a year.
the big dealers’ algorithms are based on wholesale activity in the few weeks prior with regional specificity.
as far as recent regional activity:
if gas prices shoot up a dollar a gallon in a month. those people stretching their paycheck to drive the 8 cylinder whatever may finally have the push needed to sell. with 300 million of us out here, there enough of those that the wholesale market will get an over supply of low mpg cars.
if there’s 4 consecutive weeks of snow in virginia, everyone in virginia is going to ditch their rwds and start buying subarus. dealers are selling their inventory, then going back to the auctions to restock driving prices up. meanwhile there’s a glut of rwds in virginia, driving their prices down in that area.
meanwhile, the kelly/nada number has just stayed the same.
additionally, the factors that go into the algorithm are more complex.
kelly: bright red car = low value
wholesaler algorithm: bright red car = low value for 4 door sedan, high value for corvette
kelly: low mileage = high value
algorithm: low mileage + paint work on three panels = low value
"Eric @ opposite-lock.com" (theyrerolling)
01/06/2017 at 11:31, STARS: 0
Is there some kind of regional multiplier, too? In SoCal, cars depreciate really fast even though their conditions tend to be better, while where I live in the PNW, depreciation is so slow that you don’t really get a reasonable deal on a used car until it is 12-15 years old. With Subarus, it’s practically never worth buying used because their prices are completely irrational at every point in their life cycle until they are so clapped out that it wouldn’t be worth the money to fix them.
That disparity has made me wonder why there aren’t businesses that simply buy used cars in SoCal, ship them up here, and resell them for massive profit.
"DrScientist" (DrScientist)
01/06/2017 at 11:46, STARS: 0
definitely is region specific... however... its not in depreciation. it’s in... where IS there demand for the car and how expensive will it be to transport it there.
and regarding your last point... that is exactly what many businesses do. virtually the entire wholesale market is now... uh... virtual. that is, used car dealers no longer go to physical auctions. rather they log on to online auctions, and bid on cars from around the country.
"Matsayz" (matsayz)
01/06/2017 at 12:52, STARS: 0
I was just browsing because I’m waiting for a meeting to start. I’ve had a WRX before and would get an sti if I go back. I also looked at Audi S4's which are screaming to the bottom in value
"Funktheduck" (funktheduck)
01/06/2017 at 13:51, STARS: 0
I’ve got over 100k on my 2015 mazda3
"MM54" (mm54mk2)
01/06/2017 at 20:15, STARS: 1
A year or two ago I was set on picking up a WRX, then the prices absolutly put me off on them. There are 5-year-old cars with 100k miles on them selling for 75% or more of sticker. That’s absurd. STis are even worse - blob-eye sti with 200k miles and rust on the quarters? $20k.
"Matsayz" (matsayz)
01/06/2017 at 20:21, STARS: 1
I don’t get it either. They make enough of the damn things and they have econo-car interiors. Why would anyone pay $2-3k less for a used one.
But damn I want an STI wagon